I now know I'm right about little girls and the hijab.....

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

talking to a beautiful Somali lady today(they all have hollywood smiles don't they, bloody genetic miracles!!) and she confirmed that whilst her 5 & 7 year old dds don't cover their heads she gets harassed and pressured by men at the mosque that her dds should cover. She said that whilst she doesn't because she loves her dds hair, other women do cover their very young dds. She said the men also say that unless they do it from very young they will not do it when they are the right age!

So it's not only about copying Mummy, just like the rise of the burka it's a renewed stick to beat women with.

spikey, if you see above, I realised that I'd come round to agreeing with you, though I didn't agree with how you put things. It's a curious issue that I think I probably have been idly mulling for years.

No, AI is straight. With two children with Italian names. So suggests he identifies more with Italianness too.

what? how did you follow this thread without it?? actually how did anyone follow long threads before bookmark?

are you on the new version of MN? if you hover about the posts does a bookmark button come up? click on it and it will save that post so when you click into the thread again it will take you right to the last post you read. saves ages in searching for your place.

I have to keep going back and forth to 'previous' then 'last'....i don't see any bookmark button...

from hijab to italy...thats mumsnet

if you click on customise it will tell you which mumsnet you are on. you need to click on mumsnet new. then scroll down to the setting options ans teh last option will be 'display bookmark links'. select yes and save. that should get you sorted.

Habbi,

I used to raise an eyebrow when Americans would call themselves Irish/ Italian American etc. Now being Scottish, living in England with children born here who have english accents - I see it differently and view them as Scottish , just as their parents are. I can now understand how many Americans feel - problem is when they all start marrying outside their cultural group and dilute that cultural hertigage. Wonder at what point they give up and just think of themselves as American. It is an interesting topic!

Booooooyhooo...just did that,thanks

i think, as spikey has said, it is a very personal thing, fastedwina, 2 brothers who are the children of an irish/italian couple may each consider themselves different to the other. i.e; one may still refer to himself as irish/italian and one may jsut consider himself american. i guess it depends how much your parents emphasise the heritage and also teh community in which you live.

welcome, i love it now, am lost without it.

I've read the whole thread - phew! My parents were both irish and my granny frequently reminded me that I had only irish blood. However, I was born in Britain, I was schooled here, I work here, I was married here, my child was born here, my parents died here and I have a british passport. I am British (and proud of my Irish heritage). anyway, re the original OP - I was in a dept store cafe yesterday with my small daughter. It was quiet, there were no men. Lady in full veil plus husband (presumably) came in with a coffee. She only dropped her veil to take a phone call but made sure she was facing the wall. It made me sad; like she wanted to be invisible. It was probably her choice but I am sure it is not the choice of millions of women who live in other countries. And I can't help thinking - why doesn't her husband cover his face?

HA i have bookmark!!!

boo

agree it's personal and up to the person. That's why I'll leave it to my DC's to decide if they want to be english or scottish, a mix of the 2 or whatever. Dh will not be so easy to convince! Saying that we have already lived in Asia and will probably make a big move again. The poor kids are quite mixed up already.

Posy love, I want you to go to the mirror and look very carefully at your head, I'm afraid you look like your wearing a tinfoil hat.

Might be a idea to catch up with one of the other local MNers in RL and talk things over about what ever is driving all this,(Obviously not Riv) but this thing with the islamophobia is getting a bit weird.

I think that something pritty big happen to you this year thats maybe thrown you a curve.It involves a cake you made, someone who wears a headscarf, and meeting a now head of state?
Ring any bells?

Go talk to someone.

Please.

This is genuine concern.

Ok I was not born in the Uk but consider myselfBritish. My son was not born in the Uk and neither wax his father. I consider my son British. This is because of his cultural heritage and the way we're bringing him up.

However, should my son decides that he equates himself more or equally with the people of the country he was born in, I would not be at all offended if be says he is 'from' here. It's individual choice

Spikey, that's where we disagree strongly. Your children are the ones who will determne whether they're 'English' not you.

Incidentally, if my son doesnt have children with abritish born Brit (or return to the Uk) his children won't have a British passport. Under spikey's logic they would still be 'English'. Like 'Irish' Americans, I find this an interesting point to discuss.

This has nothing to do with 'brown' people, it has everything to do with a backward thinking import that even women brought up in a free society choose to follow. If this import modernised and allowed women the same rights and freedoms as men then, aside from it being completely constructed by a man, I would have no issue with it. The associated practices with this religion and things done in it's name are the things that frighten me the most.

My children have determined that they are going to follow Islam, so I'm not shoving anything down their throat if that's the latest story that's going to be told on this thread. Disagree all you like. And you are still confusing British and English. At no point have I said we are not British born.

Being Catholic myself, in case that was missed also.

Anyway, TBH I didn't post to have every aspect of my life and identity picked over. What I call myself has nothing to do with anybody, and I'm shocked that people think it would. Funnily enough in the real world, the majority of people I know consider themselves primarily their heritage, and then British born. Mumsnet is different for some reason, but I prefer the real world. For obvious reasons.

Spikey. I consider myself English and was born in England to English parents. I am British by passport!!

I've met ex pats who live in China, born in HK to Argentinian and US parents....they consider themselves American, even though it's the country they've visited the least!!

Easy choice for you then Posie . I think you still need to have your identity validated by Mumsnet though. I'm sure someone will be along shortly

Right possey,have a wee think about it this way:

If we look at christans the way your looking at islam.

Christan association with terrorism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Christan association with oppression of women:

www.exmormon.org/mormwomn.htm

evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/hernandez_seckel.htm

www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/9/4/7/5/p294758_index.html

Possy, you going to go round nunnery and hassle the nuns for what they wear?

hubpages.com/hub/hijab_vs_habit

I do not judge Christianity on the nut jobs who blow up abortion clinics, force girls in to polygamist Mormon marriages, or Amish who wear filly hats.Nither should you judge all of the follower of Islam in this way.

You said you freaked out one day at a pool because a Muslim woman was sat with a head scarf on, well guess what possy, there were probably loads more Muslims woman round that pool that day, you just couldn't bloody see them as they weren't wearing the hijab, I have mates who are Muslim and don't wear the headscarf.

Catch a grip.

Mother....I see you have a problem with reality and so I'll make this very very clear for you. I have a problem with religious practices that punish women, not men. I have an issue with religion in itself but accept that it can do some good for some people. Covering a child's head so she is not a temptress is revolting, the whole idea that women cover to protect men from themselves is bad enough but these are little girls.

I do not have a problem with only Islam but I fundamentally disgree with the treatment of women in any group where they are neither equal or allowed freedom.

Posie btw, not Possy (tis simple copying that's all). About the pool, how can anyone not be fucked off (not freaked out#) watching a family playing in the pool in the centre of bi=oiling hot Bangkok and not think it shameful, in this day and age, that the women were sat around in full robe and burberry head coverings? On what planet is that okay?

Is it so hard to accept that this is not about prejudice but fundamental disliking for a practice?

Exactly HB. I thought that was obvious till I came on here. I've asked a few colleagues today. One has A Jamaican dad, Scottish mum. Born here. She looked at me funny when I asked if she considered herself English. One is Indian, born here. He told me he was British Indian. I asked him if he thought he was English. He doesn't. He fully understood the difference between British born and English. We must be on a different planet!