To think that all Labour supporters must be a bit bloody thick?

[massivemammaries]

I don't understand it ........ Every one I have heard moans on about being worse off under the Coalition ... why do they all think the money to bail us out of Browns' catastrophic fuck up should come from somebody else? don't they get it? we all have to pay now.

And why oh why would anybody in their right mind want Labour in again after what they have done to our country??

I am at a loss

ingodwetrust I would be surprised if you were in receipt of state support. I merely hope that you are never unfortunate enough to be in that position.

I don't think it says much for labor that the best shadow chancellor they can come up with is an ex-postman with no qualifications ... it doesn't fill me with great confidence that they will be able to aid the country in economic recovery.

Humphrey it is not an assumption, it's a certainty! Humphrey it is not an assumption, it's a certainty!

You continue to make my case

you are so certain you are right, and morally superior to me

I don't believe the state should be responsible for every little bit of our lives. The state is simply not capable of doing what communities can (i am not saying they will change due to this idea mind, think it is all too wolly really).

Throwing more and more and more money at problems does not always, and indeed often, solve them. We have tried that now and it didn't work.

Did you know that the gap between the rich and poor lessened the most during John Major's government? It just shows that things are not as simplistic as Labour good/Tory bad. Or Tory good/Labour bad for that matter

Humphrey you are so defensive!
I don't think you're reading what I am saying?
Communities aren't always capable of doing what the state can either - healthcare springs to mind, so does education

I don't think I am being defensive, I am enjoying this discussion.

You still keep saying you are morally superior because you are in the right (effectively). This is proving my point!

I agree about healthcare, but communities have a great deal to do with education. I am pleased about Gove's suggestions there.

Humphrey you really do sound like a floating voter you know

Anyway where is massivemammaries? is the op too thick to enter the debate?

op yabu, think we've all out argued you.

I floated over to the right a while ago now

I did that classic thing of being left wing in my twenties and right wing in my thirties

In RL all my friends are lefty.

I do feel people like me are misrepresented on here as fascist racist homophobes who all read the DM.

So right-wingers are really misunderstod bleeding heart liberal types???...no racist, facist or self serving overtones?...not a bunch of bastards with a lack of social understanding of anyone outside of their likkle world?..

yes, just like the left are all smug, self righteous and stupid, but with secretly no more morals than the rest of us fascist right wingers...

so there

smug?...self righteous..stupid?..how very dare you!!! perhaps having social conscience is what you speak of???..

but I agree the moral aspect covers every gender,political affiliation,social situation etc morality is not something controlled by social situation (though it helps)...so nuuurr

"It was the bankers"

• what happened to it being the Government's job to regulate the financial industry? No, we had the FSA and the toothless tripartite regulatory system - but so much easier just to blame the bankers!
• Why did Brown & Co spend spend spend instead of putting money by and paying down debt while times were good? Why were we still borrowing more when times were booming?
• Why did they introduce a purely political 50% tax rate which has made no money (see Vince Cable's recent admission) and resulted in 1 in 4 hedge fund employees leaving the UK (costing the Treasury an estimated £500m in tax receipts)... and this is only the beginning.

Disaster after disaster. You can't blame it all on "the bankers". The government has to shoulder some of the responsibility.

to be honest, I would rather be described as smug or self righteous than racist or facist!

You trump me in the insulting stakes

...Headline-'Tory sticks out tongue to the poor'...greed is good..

well make sure you declare your profit to the Inland Revenue

no putting it in an off-shore account now

but thats the typical rich bastard way?? find a loop-hole ..Hump you are not really a true Con are you? I see the lefty pants you are wearin mister !!

I think Conservatism is profoundly unintelligent and senseless and do remember some of the cr@p Thatcher spouted.

Oh, of course - the credit crunch must all have been Gordon Brown's fault.

It certainly takes one to know one, OP

BRING BACK THE POOR HOUSE.......that'll teach them slackers

Because the recession was caused by sub prime lending mainly in USA.

Because we could not carry on borrowing more than we earned.

Because the government kept saying control consumer spending and no one would listen.

So they started a little catch phrase called the "credit crunch" and put it in shows such as Eastenders, and everybody stopped borrowing money they could not repay.

Because we are in recession and the interest rates are ridiculously low, last time there was a recession under the Tory government the interest rate was 16% and thousands lost their homes.

Gordon Brown has minimised the effect of the recession, but some are too dumb to realise.

OP, YABU and you know it.

And the Tories eat their young.

owlicecream, do you have any more information about your statement that one in four hedge fund managers leaving?

Only it's the first piece of good news I've had all day.

moraldefensive has the right idea.

hey, ime lots of left leaning people 'manage' their tax, as was proved to me during a discussion with some friends when I stated that obviously NONE of them took any steps at all to minimise their tax bills. The silence was deafening and rather funny. To me at least.

edam, are you equally pleased they have taken £500m of taxes with them?

This is for HumphreyCobbler and smallwhitecat.

Thank you for your excellent, civil and lucid posts. I am pretty much in agreement and not myself a Labour voter.

I most certainly agree with HC about the socialism/fascism link, and would rather, from a philosophical point of view, err on the side of individual freedom.

With regards to the question of morality, obviously the issue is a more complicated than "Labour supporters want to help the poor and Conservative supporters don't care about the poor", which is a completely erroneous dichotomy, though I agree that it is adhered to pretty strictly by lefties. Of course I care about the well-being of the poor and less-able amongst us. For me it is a question of long-term vs short-term well-being, a measure of one's belief in human potential. So yes, I understand HC very well she states that she believes that Labour has not offered what is best for society and the poorer in general.

A government who consistently operates on a deficit budget, promotes a no-work culture by keeping the poorest in society like pets, and operates by disinformation, proscriptive policy, and stifling dissent is not addressing anyone's long term interests, only short term interests. I believe a society where everyone is encouraged and aided in reaching their full potential will be much better off in the long term than one where everyone is encouraged and aided in conforming to a median level of achievement in the interests of "fairness". The details of how to actually make this work can and should continue to be debated.

Well said zazizoma.