to be suspicious of freemasons?

[wheelsonthefeckingbus]

My brother is a member and wants DH to join. Dh isn't interested anyway, but I did have a bit of a debate with DB recently. The problem is that because it is a secretive society, it's very hard to get ammunition to argue.

Would it be true to say that they are

elistist? after all only certain people can join.
nepotistic? there is an element of "helping" each other - ie. members of that elite
patriarchal? although women can join a separate group
homophobic?
have some sort of mumbo jumbo religious element?

DB say that they "do a lot for charity" but he doesn't have to join a secret society and roll up his trouser leg to be charitable.

Any comments?

Surrey - re " I asked you to provide clear evidence that Freemasons did not base their fraternaty's ideologies on Egyptian mysteries."

Why on earth would I have to provide evidence for something I have never claimed???

My question to you was why you think there are 360 "original" degrees, Egyptian or otherwise.

The point of Freemasonry is not to raise money for charity so it is silly to criticize Freemasons for the amount they raise.

In the UK there are several different Masonic groups, the biggest being The United Grand Lodge of England (men only), International Order of Co-Freemasonry or Le Droit Humaine (men and women) and The Honourable Fraternity of Ancient Masons (women only).

Charity is in fact the primary tenet of freemasonry. We don't rattle tins in the street or advertise on TV. Every meeting, the members will give what they feel able (usually £1, plus a standing order if they can). The money is then given to various charities or those in need of medical assistance.

All money is raised internally and given to causes both masonic and non-masonic.

The only group to give more money to charity in the UK has been the National Lottery.

If i wanted to gain an advantage in business i would join one of the many business networking clubs. It'd be far simpler, cheaper and i wouldn't need to learn any stories. :)

please be nice, i'll happily answer any questions.

Charity is in fact not the primary tenet of Freemasonry, as CoteDAzur points out. It is one activity of Freemasonry, but it is not the main tenet.

The main tenet is 'god with a small g', as Saultanpepper has said upthread. The rest is a smokescreen.

I would disagree. Only because that is what I have experienced in lodge. Everybody will take something different from their experiences. I've never come across 'god' (small g) in our meetings. It is God (big G) that unites us all, regardless of how you worship.

It is charity and kindness that i live my life by.

I know not all masons are good people because not all people are good. This is what I mean with regards to all walks of life.

So something of a religion/ religious experience for you then?

Not a religion, because freemasonry doesn't specify which God or how to worship. More like a place where people of any faith can contemplate how their faith can make them a better person through shared/common values.

And as far as it being a religious experience, it's difficult to explain.
Some meetings it will literally be an evening out where you can catch up with friends, have a meal and sometimes meet some new people. Another night i will feel the urge to think about the Biblical texts that are being recited and enjoy it in a different way.

As we learn from all external input and relate it to our lives I have found Freemasonry has never been at odds with my own religion and in many cases has enriched my beliefs and reaffirmed my faith.

I don't mean that to seem convoluted, but it's the best way i can put it into writing without going on for days on end :)

Thank you for your question. I hope that helps.

No god specified, nor any form of worship, but Biblical texts recited?

In my lodge (and most lodges in England) we use the stories of the old testament to illustrate good qualities to aspire to. However, if there is another sacred text that can show the same qualities it will often be used if it is relevant to the members.

A sacred text is used because it's a culturally relevant guide that is held in high regard. It's been that way for at least 300 or so years so it's mainly a welcome tradition. Some lodges that have an extremely large and culturally diverse membership will have a blank book instead of holding a huge library.

I like using a nice Bible since it is relevant to me and my beliefs. But, after it was explained to me i wouldn't mind a blank book.
"it's not what is written that matters. The words are irrelevant if your belief and actions are not true and kind"

Made me feel all warm and fuzzy :)

So one sacred text (or 'culturally relevant guide') is as good as another as far as the Masons are concerned? Many roads up a mountain and all converge at the top?

If you are a Christian, then are you aware of the significance of the Bible as the Word of God? Or that Jesus is 'the way, the truth and the life'? Not "one of many ways, truthiness, and multiple lives?"

Your response is an illustration of what the Catholic Church and many other Christian churches find objectionable in Freemasonry.

I have a good friend who is a mason.
He is a copper, neither racist nor homophobic.

He is happy to discuss the freemasons with me and I recognise a lot of the stuff I have read on here with regard to it being a group of men who wish to work together with a philosophical approach and discipline and structure to frame their meetings. He believes in charity and looking after his friends... which does not mean hurting others.

it's akin to MN standing alongside a regular MNetter during a crisis. Just a different format because it's not the net

That's a fair point and very well put.

The differences in the various Christian churches and their methods of worship are often so distinct that if seen side-by-side would have very little in way of similarity.

I have never taken much stock in the idea of 'Believe in Gods eternal love and forgiveness or burn in hell!'

I don't feel my church judges me, since it's not their place to. If i am to be judged, it will be by God. I will stick to the teachings of Christ, but i am aware that the same teachings are also in other faiths.

I'm open to the idea that i'm wrong in my methods or approach. But kindness, tolerance and love are not values restricted to Christianity.

Good points both @VictoriasLittleKnownSecret & @mathanxiety

I'm liking the friendly banter. It's nice to have this thread without hate from either side and a genuine interest.

D.d.Azur,

I was more or less asking you to tell me what their ideologies are based on. Sometimes I find that when I make claims that are contrary to the more popular ones, people disagree with them for the sake of being disagreeable.

That the original degrees are 360 is a mathematical fact i.e. 360 degrees in a circle. When you are studying esoteric material, the point is to reach the highest level and become a complete and perfect man. This was symbolically represented as a circle hence 360 degrees in ancient Egypt as well as by Baphomet (another misunderstood and much feared symbol).

Historians who have studied Egypt know that the Greeks adopted Egyptian mysteries, and the Romans also did the same much later on. Incidentally, when Christianity was introduced in Egypt, they were so resistant to it that a lot of their teachings were mixed with those of the Egyptians so they could understand and accept them. This is the reason why Freemasons use several sacred texts in their lodges; all of them are sacred, because they contain some truth mixed in with lies.

The Freemasons cannot reach this 360 degrees (the reason why is yet to be explained) so they came up with 33 degrees to represent the age that Jesus was when he died.

SA

The whole concept of becoming a complete and perfect man here on earth is alien to the basic idea of Christianity -- that Man is a fallen creature who may be saved by the Resurrection of Jesus.

OK

@mathanxiety

Charity is indeed one of the three main pillars of freemasonry, the others being brotherly love and truth

You are not required to believe in God, but in a supreme being (which may be Buddha or Vishnu, as examples) which is why I said god with a small 'g'.

I've never heard of this 'many roads converging at the top of the mountain' concept. Not something I've ever come across in Masonry; not saying others haven't. We just choose to accept that not everyone has the same beliefs, and that irrespective of whether you believe in God, Jehovah, Yahweh, Allah, Buddha, Vishnu, or any other supreme being, you can live your life in a just and upright manner. For this reason we refer to all sacred texts (Bible, Quran, Torah etc as the Volume of the Sacred
Law, so as not to exclude or offend any brethren who may be of different faiths.

The Catholic Church finds Masonry objectionable because of this choice.

I think it's very off that under a patriarchal regime, where women are disenfranchised, men use these secret little clubs to promote each other''s interests

It's networking.

Everyone networks.
The toddler club.....to women's institute...... to freemasonry. I can join all as far as I see it?

Depends what you are looking for. What do you actually think masonry has deprived you of Sakura? Is it just a perception that you are being disenfranchised ?

Have you ever tried to get involved with the Eastern Star side?

The difference between the toddler club and the WI on the one hand and the Masons on the other is the secrecy. Reducing the oaths of loyalty and the secrecy to a simplistic 'it's networking' is disingenuous. The subversive aspect of the oaths of loyalty have long been a concern of governments, as there is a fundamentally undemocratic element to all of that, as well as the potential to subvert the justice system.
From MOD 2001 Dept. Policy on Freemasonry in the Military:-

'The following instruction sets out guidance governing the membership by members of the armed forces of societies such as freemasons: there is no intention or policy to preclude service personnel from membership of any lawful and benevolent organisation. However, involvement in organisations of a secretive nature, such as the freemasons, carries with it the risk of establishing disparate loyalties which may have a destabilising influence on the chain of command, not least by the perception of preferential treatment and undue influence. While membership of such organisations is clearly a matter for the individuals concerned, serving personnel should not encourage or promote membership amongst their colleagues, meetings should not be held on MOD premises, and use should not be made of any MOD property.'

And of course there's the 'esoteric' element, which you won't find in the WI.

The Catholic Church objects to the philosophy behind the 'choice', that Catholic Christianity and the word of God are merely one among many 'truths'. (The Catholic Church does not object to attempts to not offend, but to the deliberate mischaracterisation of what constitutes truth in the Christian context).

I'm sorry that there seems to be no way of showing you that we're not all cloak and dagger.

Don't close yourself off to the good in the world. Free masonry is part of that good as well. Even if it's not for you.

Ah, closing myself off to the good in the world, and being obdurate about it too -- very subtle there. How is believing in Jesus and having nothing to do with Freemasonry 'closing myself off to the good in the world'? And the 'cloak and dagger' phrase; (it goes far deeper than melodrama) also subtle. You're very good.

As a Christian, this is what is relevant -- 'I am the way, the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me'. This is not closing myself off to the good in the world. This is rejecting deeds done in darkness. It is accepting that there is such a thing as 'the truth'. Freemasonry is a subversive force that operates in darkness, exclusivity and secrecy. I'm sorry you feel the way you do about Freemasonry, especially if you're a Christian.

Freemasonry couldn't be for me anyway as I'm a woman, so therefore not perfectable, apparently.

Douay Bible (Catholic)
'Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness?'

KJV (C of E)
'Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?'

I think freemasonry is simply representative of a patriarchal society whereby women are excluded from power and money in all areas of life.
All institutions: political, medical and financial are owned, and run by, men.
Keeping it in the club is the way male power perpetuates. The freemasons epitomizes this.

The WI is simply women trying to make the best of a bad job in the patriarchal regime under which they are living

I have put across my feelings and experiences, as have you. I can see neither of us will be swayed in our positions.

I thank you for you thoughts and will be sure to look with a critical eye. All i ask is for you to do the same.

I have heard arguments against Freemasonry in the past and often found them to be untrue, misplaced or misguided.

Other opinions have been well founded and can be explained by personal taste.

I hope people who have followed this thread will research for themselves if so inclined. Freemasons do so much good and i am proud to be a member.

As i've said in previous posts im more than happy to answer any questions (as opposed to fending off allegations :) )

Thanks to those who have e-mailed me and i hope my answers have helped or at least explained my feelings.

Kind regards
Chris

www.ugle.org.uk

www.sussexmasons.org.uk/

I was asked to post a couple of links. Here they are.