to be suspicious of freemasons?

[wheelsonthefeckingbus]

My brother is a member and wants DH to join. Dh isn't interested anyway, but I did have a bit of a debate with DB recently. The problem is that because it is a secretive society, it's very hard to get ammunition to argue.

Would it be true to say that they are

elistist? after all only certain people can join.
nepotistic? there is an element of "helping" each other - ie. members of that elite
patriarchal? although women can join a separate group
homophobic?
have some sort of mumbo jumbo religious element?

DB say that they "do a lot for charity" but he doesn't have to join a secret society and roll up his trouser leg to be charitable.

Any comments?

Freemasonry is not a religion. There is no dogma there, nothing you have to "believe". In English Obedience, you are expected to believe in the Judeo-Christian God - Bible is open on the altar (also Torah & Quran if there are members from these religions). In French Obedience, the "book" on the altar has all blank pages - you can believe in anything or nothing, and "The Architect of the Universse" can be anything you personally think it is.

Freemasonry is so far from religion that I wonder those who say it is a religion know anything about it at all.

Each degree has its theme, mentioned in the initiation ritual for that degree. Through the courser of their time in that degree, members attend lectures on topics related to the theme of thar degree and give at least one lecture of their own. The idea is intellectual development though reflection and discussion.

Sorry for typos and missing words. Writing on phone with quirky auto-correct.

So proven beyond a reasonable doubt then and accepted by a preponderance of scientific bodies/ conferences of philosophers/ Really Bright People, SGB?

Why have a bible or an altar unless it's a religion? Why even discuss the 'Architect of the Universe'? The WI discusses homemade jam and Victoria sponges, after all...

It's not a religion. If anything it promotes harmony between religions.

dh has now been a member for over 5 yrs. i was very suspicious of it at first and find some of the pomp and ceremony quite odd to say the least. There is a belief in a god. Dh is ok with this. (im an athiest im afraid).

have been to a couple of ladies nights and they are ok. with two little kiddies its a night out. 9although i dont know if other lodges do it but the song to the ladies is cringeworthy in the extreme.

I felt exactly like you did before dh got involved.

hth

Mathanxiety, I don't understand your point. What do you think created religion if not human culture? Religious people, even prophets, still acknowledge their humanity. In fact the acknowledgement of their humanity is a major part of religious teaching - the incarnation and so on.

It promotes the idea that all religions are created equal, therefore they should be harmonious, (or invented equal; much of what SGB says is quite masonic wrt religion) therefore it is anti-Christian, since Christians believe salvation comes through Jesus, not Buddha, or Marx, or the fairies in the garden.

Hence the objection of the Catholic Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, Wesleyan Methodist Church, Assemblies of God, Church of the Nazarene, Reformed Presbyterian Church, Church of Scotland, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, Baptist Union of Scotland, and many others world wide.

Math: IN what way are all the various superstitions not equal? They were all made up by human beings with the same mix of motivations (the benign one ie explaining what could not then be explained, the neutral-ish one, the creating of a set of rules for people to co-operate, and the main one, which is the enabling of a self-appointed group/class of people to get to tell everyone else what to do and take advantage of them).

Milly Christianity and its predecessor, Judaism are revealed religions; religions founded, made known and developed by divine intervention and communication the Torah (and Bible) both start with the creation of the universe by God and then detail the way God is revealed to his creation. The Old Testament recounts the story of the relationship of the Israelites with God, and the New Testament recounts the coming of the Messiah and his teachings, his death, his resurrection and the beginnings of the apostles' mission, guided by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the people through whom God spoke were human, (Jesus being fully God and fully man, so the exception) but the words came from God; this is a basic tenet of all Christian denominations.

SGB, are you a Mason?

Math - Surely you understand that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam claim to be the paths to the same God. There is very little difference between all three and many similarities, including myths re genesis and names of principle characters.

You might want to think there is something unique about your chosen religion, but really, there isn't.

A neutral term "Ardhitect of the Universe" is used in Freemasonry as an inclusive term that members of any of these religions would comfortable with.

Freemasonry is an intellectual pursuit, not a religious one. Therein lies the problem for the Christian church, perhaps. When people start thinking, they tend to see through bullshit and next thing you know, they are revolting against the Inquisition and claiming at the Earth revolves around the Sun.

my Dad refused an offer to join - he felt that it was rascist, sexist, and to top it all, just bloody daft. If you want to have social gathering, you don't need it to be secretive, involve ritual of any kind or for it to be closed to exterior view.

Haven't read all this so will just plunge in with my view: YANBU. if freemasonry is so great why the secrecy? It's just elitism for the sake of it, adds nothing to the work that's done (if it really is just about philanthropy and co-support), just makes you feel 'special' - ugh. Unless, of course, it's secret so you can give your mates a leg up and receive one yourself without having to declare it. At best, it's utterly foolish, at worst, illegal in intention.

And for people who say 'there are lots of groups that are just for women' - yeah, and they were developed to deliberately try to counterbalance all the leg-ups and benefits, official and unofficial, the MANY all-male groups give to guys. So not a great argument. It's not just a 'bit of fun', things like the old-boy network and freemasonry have shut women out of power, influence and decision-making for as long as we've been allowed out of the house.

Wow! glad I got that off my chest. :)

ooh just read Edgar's post - you said it better

It is not "secret" (clearly, since everyone and his dog knows so much about it ) but esoteric. Look up the term.

It's not "just about philanthropy and co-support", that would be Rotary. Freemasonry is an intellectual and philosophical group where members are expected to better themselves in every way. Think of it as a school that teaches through example (master to apprentice), with rituals of symbols and allegory.

still don't understand why it has to be secret - sorry. What you've just described would be a university as far as I'm concerned.

Teaching by example eh? Presumably that whatever knowledge you gain you keep it to yourself or amongst people as like yourself as possible... not my cup of tea

There are many books about Freemasonry that explain what it is and what it tries to do, which clearly means that it is not a shady secret group that is out to get your men

As with anything, you need to have a minimum level of knowledge to be able to talk meaningfully about this subject. Otherwise, all you say is paranoia and prejudice.

There are different ways to teach. You can tell someone "One day, you will die. So make each day count" 100 times a day, but that will probably not get to him. Or you can put him in a coffin and ask him what good has he done so far and what if his life were to end today, and you probably have his attention.

This method obviously runs the risk of ignorant villagers getting all scared that you have a coffin somewhere and get gossiping about devil worship but arguably that can't be avoided.

Math: No. I'm female for a start. I just make no distinction between any of the brands of woobollocks, whether that's the Abrahamic superstitions, alien abductees, homeopathy, the pantheistic versions like Hinduism and the rest, the tooth fairy and father christmas. They're all nonsense. So is freemasonry.

I find the Masons highly suspicious.

"esoteric. Look up the term."

Patronising or what?

But SGB we have undeniable evidence that Freemasonry exists.

And as has already been established there are women freemasons.

Cote, I'm not talking about 'uniqueness', just the fact that certain religions claim to be directly revealed by the one and only God, Catholic Christianity being the one I am most familiar with. It is the fact that a term such as 'Architect of the Universe' is used, one that involves the leap from believing in the one and only God as revealed in holy scripture, which is the basis of Christian belief (and Judaism and Islam), that prompts the opposition of so many Christian churches to Freemasonry.

'An intellectual and philosophical group whose members are expected to better themselves in every way' -- sounds like a description of the C of E to me (possibly with the modification of 'every way' to exclude financial advantage and back scratching.) Or even Catholicism, which has given the world plenty of philosophers and intellectual heavyweights, but it is now fashionable to deride the Catholic Church as a benighted institution determined to return the world to a state of 'non-enlightenment'...

And again, if Freemasonry is an intellectual pursuit, why the religious rigmarole, the rituals, the Bible (would be interested to know what version btw), the altar?

SGB, again, 'in my opinion' is relevant and useful.

Esoteric:
'confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle; "a compilation of esoteric philosophical theories"'
'a term with two basic meanings. In the dictionary sense of the term, "esoterism" signifies the holding of opinions or beliefs, and derives from the Greek ' (esôterikos), a compound of ' (esô): "", thus "pertaining to the more inward", mystic.'
'1. restricted to or intended for an enlightened or initiated minority, esp because of abstruseness or obscurity, an esoteric cult...

1. difficult to understand; abstruse, an esoteric statement
2. not openly admitted; private esoteric aims'

Esoteric is bound up with the idea of a cult, a chosen few, a self-selected small group. The opposite would be exoteric; for public use, suitable for the public.

Happyseven: We have undeniable evidence that Catholics, Jews, Buddhists and everyone else, including people who believe in fairies, exist.
What we don't have is any evidence that the imaginary friends these people believe in, exist.