to be suspicious of freemasons?

[wheelsonthefeckingbus]

My brother is a member and wants DH to join. Dh isn't interested anyway, but I did have a bit of a debate with DB recently. The problem is that because it is a secretive society, it's very hard to get ammunition to argue.

Would it be true to say that they are

elistist? after all only certain people can join.
nepotistic? there is an element of "helping" each other - ie. members of that elite
patriarchal? although women can join a separate group
homophobic?
have some sort of mumbo jumbo religious element?

DB say that they "do a lot for charity" but he doesn't have to join a secret society and roll up his trouser leg to be charitable.

Any comments?

You can't join if you're a Catholic because, among other reasons, the Catholic Church considers Freemasonry to be conspiratorial, an organisation seeking to subvert the state, and anti-Catholic too, essentially a living, breathing graven image. The "New Catholic Encyclopedia" states that "Freemasonry displays all the elements of religion, and as such it becomes a rival to the religion of the Gospel. It includes temples and altars, prayers, a moral code, worship, vestments, feast days, the promise of reward and punishment in the afterlife, a hierarchy, and initiative and burial rites" (vol. 6, page 137).

"Catholicism is essentially a revealed religion; it is essentially supernatural, both in its destiny and in its resources. Beyond all natural fulfillment, it tends toward an eternity of ineffable union with God in Himself; and beyond all natural resources, it begins that union here and now in the sacramental life of the Church. ...

Masonry, on the other hand, is essentially a religion of "reason." With an insistence and a consistency matching Catholicism's self-definition, Masonry promises perfection in the natural order as its only destiny -- as indeed the highest destiny there is. And it provides for this perfectibility with its resources: the accumulated sum of purely human values, subsumed under the logo of "reason." " (Man as God, very simply put)

The First Commandment is the basis of the Catholic Church's opposition on philosophical grounds 'I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt not have false gods before me'

The second objection relates to the oaths members must take because they violate the Second Commandment (Catholic order of commandments may differ from protestant) "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain"; invoking without adequate cause the name of God.

The Catholic Church advocates neighbourly tolerance for individual Masons, but joining the craft is forbidden.

Vinvinoveritas, are you talking about the Scottish Rite?

I cannot claim to know much about it other than that my father has been a member for many, many years.

When he was younger I know he was very active and held a fairly senior position and seemed to do quite a bit for other people (not just freemasons!) and raise/give plenty of money for charity.

Now he has fallen upon hard times (lost a lot of money at an age where he couldn't possibly earn it back) and had a stroke I have to say that the freemasons have been WONDERFUL. I don't know exactly what they have given him (a mobility scooter at least I think) but I do know that someone will always come and take him places and to meetings if he wants to go.

Oh and I should add that my dad was not some high flyer. He had a skilled but essentially working class/lower middle class job. I have no reason to think that he is racist or homophobic - I have certainly never heard him say anything that would make me think that he was.

Yes, there is the element of it being 'secret'. I don't think he is a 'dick' though. It is harder for me to have a supportive group of friends. I think the freemasons has been a very good thing in my Dad's life. I am sure he wouldn't have had anywhere near as much support and happiness if he hadn't have been one or given it to others. They helped him when my mum died and he was left with two young children, supported him when he had his stroke and continue to support him in old age. As he did to others.

It is harder for men to have a supportive group of friends.

Anyway, I think YABU.

Tch. The Catholic Church is just jealous because Freemasonry is an older religion. Both of them are of course a load of bollocks, as is all religion.
I don't think the Masons are much worse than any other male supremacist cult, really: they do have a bit of a tradition of protecting other Masons when said other masons have committed crimes (up to and including rape and abuse)... so, like I said, the Catholic church is just jealous of them as competition.

Not 'just jealous' SGB.

But yes, the subversion of justice and the claim to be a religion are two reasons the Catholic Church does not allow Catholics to join, although the charitable initiatives are respected.

The Catholic claims to be a religion founded upon revelation, not something made up by people. You can take that or leave it, SGB (you have chosen to leave it), but unless you're shopping for a religion, joining the Masons wouldn't be high on your list of priorities.

I used to belong to a secret society.

Then I left junior school and grew out of it.

My dad is in the Masons.

Erm...it was originally based on some sort of ancient Egyptian teachings...it evolved etc etc

Basically you have to be invited and do some sort of initiation. It is secret-although all members names are in a public document.

They give MILLIONS to charity, but they have to set up a direct debit once they're a member.
THey don't allow women in the standard ones.
Most are businessmen and police men.
There are ranks.
They wear little aprons (blue)
and white gloves.
They have a huge support network all over the world, so if you travel and get without a place to say they re like a fraternity, they put you up!

Mathanxiety: All religions are made up. They are all just brands, and therefore big on brand loyalty, hence their constant bitching at the other brands. The Masons are no more or less ridiculous than any of the others and probably less misogynistic than many - while they don't allow women to join, nor do they encourage cutting off their clits or imprisoning them in their homes unless they cover their heads, faces and bodies...

SGB, are you familiar with the term 'in my opinion'?

errr DP is a Mason and v high up, there is NOTHING satanistic about the Masons at all, and they aren't paticularly secretive either, I've helped him learn his words for loads of stuff, seen all his aprons - he has 4 or 5 and very pretty they are too lol, etc

I'd say go for it, I've seen nothing but benefit come out of it.

That religions are all made up by human beings is a fact, not an opinion.

My neighbour's a mason - his wife says it's been a life-line as he had to retire early due to ill-health and it's kept him going with social contact and all that. Fair enough but I really dislike the doing favours for each other thing when it comes to career networking or promotion or speeding fines or anything where you are excluding other people - especially women - rather than just being sociable.

Given it's secret, hard to know and judge what they may or may not be doing together.

But anything which interferes with meritocracy is a bad thing in my book. If I could not join on principle, then I would.

Although I understand the gratitude to people who have helped when it's needed, isn't that what the welfare state was invented for? Why invent a society within a society that only some people can benefit from?

Surely the only reason to be concerned about the Freemasons is that in the past, there have been allegations that they have broken the law in order to help each other. Examples of that are men who have broken the law but either not prosecuted or convicted, men who have been given jobs when they were not the best candidate (breaking employment law, or men who were given contracts or given planning consent and so on when it contravened existing environmental legislation.

And it really isn't the same as being on a football team or in a golf club with someone. If you were in a football team with someone and were also investigating their crime, or were the judge and they were the accused, quite a few people would be pointing out that there was a huge conflict of interests. It is rather harder for the public, your colleagues or the press to point out that there is a conflict of interests if you are part of a secret network.

So whether or not you should be suspicious depends on whether or not you believe there is truth in these allegations. That comes down to personal experience - and people are generally wary of discussing miscarriages of justice on random web forums.

As for what they do in their rituals; why should anyone care?

MillyR: I agree with you completely. The only reason anyone should be dubious about the masons is the secret-doing-favours aspedct.

Well said Milly R. I know of many men who would possibly favour in terms of employment for people who are members of the same golf club. My Dad has been a mason for many years, and was even laid off once by a fellow mason, employment was given to the non mason.As stated countless times, they do look after each others families in times of trouble. What's so bad about that?
I work freelance for one of the main UK TV channels, and think you would be shocked at the amount of nepotism that goes on, and greasing of palms that occurs with young people starting in the industry. If you know someone who works in the industry, or having a relative working for a broadcasting company is a sure-fire way in. It's the nature of the commercial world.
It's human nature to be suspicious of something you know nothing about. Ignorance of an organisation will of course cause fear. It's how you deal with that fear that belies who you are as a person. Making sweeping derogatory statements in a vociferous manner, and voicing presumptions based on nothing but hearsay show your insecurity. If they're not harming you, just let 'em get on with it! Someone will always know someone whose brother/uncle/cousin was helped career-wise by being in the Masons, and these stories get passed on 3rd, 4th,5th hand because it always adds to the validation of a negative opinion against the masons.
Live and let live.
BTW, the same way as there are 'Lodges' within certain professional groups and industries, there are also many lodges within gay communities, so if you 'heard' that masons are homophobic (again it's another 'validation' to fuel the negative opinion) then it's not really a label that will stick.I know plenty of masons in the entertainment industry, some of them extremely public faces, who are also gay...

SGB -- It is a theory, which is a form of opinion.

Nope, according to all the evidence, it's a fact. Of course, silly people are at liberty to believe in the existence of gods, fairies, pixies and flying saucers despite there being no evidence at all of such things - but their beliefs are not facts, they are just nonsense. Like people believing the earth is flat.

What evidence? And it's not like saying the world is flat as there is evidence to show that it is not.

Thanks for all the (conflicting) comments everyone.

I take on board that the masons may have some lovely members, most of whom seem to be related to Mumsnetters, but I'm still be convinced particularly on the nepotism and patriarchal aspects. Stickyfingers' comment: "Although I understand the gratitude to people who have helped when it's needed, isn't that what the welfare state was invented for? Why invent a society within a society that only some people can benefit from?" definitely struck a chord with me.

DB wants me to go to some ladies' night function with him, but I may well politely decline and leave them all too it.

All societies within society itself perform like this. It's part of human nature to favour those we know or in which we have something in common. It isn't confined to the Masons, you will find nepotism and patriachal aspects in every walk of life, from the entertainment industry to politics. Think of the number of MPs who have family members on their payroll for example. Or the number of companies who are called *** and Son. Or the plumber you recommended to a friend (if you find one I need his number btw). A huge part of the way we function as a society is based on who we know rather than what we know. Maybe it shouldn't be, but that is just how life is.

If it's only a Ladies Night then go, I've been to loads and always had fun. You will meet new people and might even enjoy yourself.

A Freemason family here, My grandad was one, so was my dad and my half brother. They paid for me to go to the Royal Masonic School where boarding fees were 18K a year 15 years ago. My dad died when I was 11 and they supported me though school and uni, and am eternally grateful to them. They do a lot of charity work and help people in need. My friend is a member of the female lodge too.