Arg! Primary school is a minefield. Another one...

[Rosieeo]

DD came home today and told me that her teacher makes them say grace before they eat. DD has no idea what it's all about; she thinks she's saying thank you to the person who gave her lunch, i.e. me!

The school has no religious affiliation although the prospectus alludes to 'collective daily worship'. I appreciate that schools are somewhat obliged to provide some kind of 'spiritual' stuff. I just expected it to be Harvest Festival or a few hymns in assembly.

Obviously I have no problem with religious education, as long as it is 'education' (some people believe this, others believe that) and not religion presented as fact.

I went to a CofE primary school and even they didn't make us say grace! AIBU to be vaguely annoyed/disturbed and to possibly have a quick word with the teacher?

Any thoughts? Sorry if this has been done to death by the way, DD is my eldest and this is unexplored territory.

i also know i am hopeless at spelling

Does this REAAAAAALLY matter though? Saying grace for a minute a day? It isn't going to harm anyone, calm down, it's normal.

No-one has answered my question. If you worry about your child being told about God/Jesus etc, does your child believe in Santa Claus? Do you mind someone dressing up as Santa and coming into school? And if you don't, can't you treat religion in the same way - a 'legend', that some people believe.

choccy, there is some staggering statistic that 75% of White British people describe themselves as Christian. 17% describe themselves as having 'no religion' and 7% declined to answer (from the 2001 census). There are of course also the other religions, but amongst White British they are not significant statistically.

We used to say it at our CP school. Never saw anything wrong with it. In fact we used to bellow it as loud as we could "FORWHATWE'REABOUTTORECEIVEMAYTHELORDMAKEUSTRULYTHANKFULAMENSAYITAGAINFORWHAT...."

Used to drive the dinner ladies wild. Choose your battles. It's not worth it.

choccyp1g, I see your point and respect it, but just because you are told something it doesn't mean you have to believe it. I wish my DS accepted everything without question! When parents have strong beliefs (in whatever direction) I think these things can easily and harmlessly be explained away, as you mention. I hope that kids are more inclined to believe parents over school.

Although, having said that, when my DS came home the other day adamant that a banana was a herb (because Mrs Teacher said so) nothing I said could change his mind.....turns out it is, pah!

Liliybolero you make a good point.

The fact remains that Christianity is interwoven into the fabric of our country, like it or not.
The school calender is based around Christian festivals.

MouseC, You are right about not believing everything the teacher tells you. DS still

argues thinks for himself over most things, despite the teachers being right most of the time. I do back up school up over things even if I don't exactly agree, (e.g. homework, rigid handwriting styles, reading levels) but you have to stick to your principles sometimes, albeit respectfully.

Ofcourse you do, and it wouldn't do if everyone was the same .
So, as for the OP, wwyd?
I think I'd let it go (quiet life and all that). Would you talk to school?

Bumpsoon, really, you feel that I would be seen as a 'mad bint' for asking a question about school procedures and policies? As for the nativity thing, I'm not going to maintain the status quo just so that DD gets the chance to dress up in a blue robe!

I don't think I said that the school didn't have the right to assume we were Christian. I am surprised they do, in this day and age. I don't know the exact figures but I would imagine that the percentage of students that are not white British is very low.

No, I didn't get married in a church or have my children christened. We buy chocolate eggs at Easter and Father Christmas brings presents at the appropriate time. I know we don't have to have the pagan argument here!

I know what my daughter told me (and she is four, so easily confused!), that her teacher had told them to say grace and had taught them the words. I've been at work all day and haven't had the opportunity to speak to the teacher.

Crazycanuk, I think that sounds like the best solution really , to ask them to say that they can sit quietly and reflect on how lucky they are to be well fed!

*

I do understand that a lot of people seem to think that this isn't a big deal, and of course you're right, it isn't, in the great scheme of things! I'm honestly not as worked up about it as a few people seem to think.

I should say again that I am not offended as such by the school saying grace, I just don't want them to present it as fact. That seems to have annoyed many people, but I'm not criticising religion, simply saying that I'm not religious and I don't want it to be forced on my children. I want them to be informed when they're older and for them to make up their own minds, rather than be one of the many who say they're CofE and yet never go to church. What's the point?

"The school calender is based around Christian festivals." actually quite a lot of it is based aorund pagan festivals and the long summer holidays (I beleive are due to the childrne needing to help on farms throughout the summer (not sure if thats apochryphal or not).

"75% of White British people describe themselves as Christian" so at least 25% (more if you add in the non-white people in britain who don't consider themselves christian) of people are expected to actively worship in a religion they aren't a part of in schools

If we weren't purporting to be a largely secular, tolerant modern society I would keep my mouth shut and go through the motions and accept it as a price of living in a less tolerant society. But we should put our money where our mouth is and stop this ridiculous enforcement of religion on those who don't practise it and don't plan to raise their children to beleive either.

I don;t think schools should force childrne to thank Santa, the tooth fairy or the Eatser Bunny either as not all families raise their children to believe in those either.

There are no secular state schools in England. You need to read the 1998 Education Act.

There are lots of non white christians kewcumber ,every heard of gospel music ?

rosieeo yes im afraid they will think you are a mad bint if you go into school questioning this policy/procedure which hasnt upset or disturbed your dd in the slightest , only a few weeks after she has started at the school . I hope for your sake im wrong if you do decide to go in , they may well be very accomadating and reasonable to your face ,but i bet in their minds you will have a black mark against you . Ditto for the days you take dd out of school to avoide her participating in the nativity or the endless practice runs.

If you include non-White British, the percentage of people who regard themselves as Christian is about 71%. The other stats are broadly similar (for no religion and decline to say).

i can't believe this thread is still going strong! i do not understand how there could be a debate about a child being compelled to do something they 1. do not understand, 2. do not believe in.

this thread hits such a nerve for me. as an atheist, i recall being given a very hard time in the later years of primary school because i refused to pray or sing religious hymns. why should it be ok to enforce religious practices onto children? ok, there is still an absurd archaic law stating that 'collective worship' should be carried out - this needs to be rectified.

Well..they don't have to join in. And as I said, does your child believe in Santa? Or the tooth fairy? Would you have a problem with Santa coming to the school christmas party and dishing out presents? Why not, if you are an atheist, treat religion in the same way?

It's not archaic if 71% of the population regard themselves (and very likely their country) as Christian in belief and tradition. And adding in the percentage of other faiths who might also have a tradition of saying prayers of thanks over good, who would appreciate grace, this is an overwhelming majority of people. And the Education Act reflects this.

No-one who wishes their child not to participate in collective worship should be given a hard time either - parents are allowed to request their children opt out of these times (though personally I feel this is the parent imposing their own judgement of faith/religion on their child by depriving them of the opportunity of witnessing it for themselves).

bumpsoon. I don't think I said I had any plans to remove her from anything!

I don't give a shit if they think I'm mad. And I don't give a shit about a black mark, plus I don't really believe it; they're not a bunch of children that are going to 'fall out' with me! I am allowed to ask questions about my child's education.

I'm not sure that there is any genuine religious motive behind the whole thing. I think that someone up the thread hit the nail on the head when they mentioned ticking boxes for Ofsted.

Piscesmoon I didn't say it was secular. I'm aware that our ridiculous system demands a nod to 'worship'. I said (and the school said!) that they had no religious affiliations.

Kewcumber, I totally agree.

lily - the difference is that santa and the tooth fairy are treated as 'fun' imaginary entities for very young children. at a (not very) later date, the children discover/are told it was a fantasy that had the overall aim of making their childhood more magical. no harm done. however, the children brought up with a belief in god are never told the truth. they just carry on believing and everybody has to respect that right. to believe in a rather magical, yet still very imaginary friend. ok fine.

however, it is simply not right for children to be placed in a scenario where they are expected to join in with something that is completely alien to them. you say they don't have to join in. in reality if a child doesn't want to join in, what they have to do in that scenario is confront an authority figure, and most of their peers, and refuse to comply. luckily i was raised with the balls to do that, but it is not easy at all. why should it be 'opt out' of christianity, rather than 'opt in'. surely christians in this country would receive more respect if others did not feel pressurised by them

incidentally - my eldest is now 3 and we are already contemplating enlightening her about santa, as she is already working it out for herself.

Why do people seem to hate Christianity so much? I know it's "all religion" but it seems to be Christianity that gets all the flak. As it's in all schools and not just faith schools. But it's so muted and watered down these days, and so rounded with other religions. It's as though people won't be happy until it's torn to shreds.

I suppose if you send your child to a Islamic faith school you're pretty much signing up for it and not just doing it for the grades.

This Grace thing is like complaining that your child is forced to say Happy Christmas without any explanation, or the teacher said Bless You, after a sneeze -- how very dare they.

dandy. sorry where on earth are those stats from? 71% of the population in this country are christian? please please tell me where this is from? i beg to differ.

and as other athiest/agnostic posters have said, no worries about a thankyou moment/speech before eating. it is the fact that it is 'grace', being a purely CHRISTIAN tradition that is the problem. the pupils who are of other religions or of no religions will feel MARGINALSIED/ALIENATED by this.

Appletrees, that's not the case. They are asked to pray, not wish someone a nice day! And I don't hate Christianity, my post would have been the same regardless of what they were praying to.

The stats came up earlier in the thread.

Exactly, it's because it's Christian, that's the problem. It's open season on those wicked Christian ne'er do wells, that's for sure.