Arg! Primary school is a minefield. Another one...

[Rosieeo]

DD came home today and told me that her teacher makes them say grace before they eat. DD has no idea what it's all about; she thinks she's saying thank you to the person who gave her lunch, i.e. me!

The school has no religious affiliation although the prospectus alludes to 'collective daily worship'. I appreciate that schools are somewhat obliged to provide some kind of 'spiritual' stuff. I just expected it to be Harvest Festival or a few hymns in assembly.

Obviously I have no problem with religious education, as long as it is 'education' (some people believe this, others believe that) and not religion presented as fact.

I went to a CofE primary school and even they didn't make us say grace! AIBU to be vaguely annoyed/disturbed and to possibly have a quick word with the teacher?

Any thoughts? Sorry if this has been done to death by the way, DD is my eldest and this is unexplored territory.

I agree with the poster who said that the general attitude should be "tolerance to all faiths" when what it should actually be is "tolerance to all faiths and none".

Atheists are forgotten/excluded in these debates.

Second what hattie says, re thanking the fairies!

As someone who is religious, I'm going to bat the 'fairy' question right back at you, and say 'Do your kids believe in Santa Claus?'.

(My kids don't, never have done, we 'do' Santa as a game, but they know it is a great legend, rather than being 'truth', as far as religion goes we tell them what 'we' believe, and let them make up their own minds. But I am always astounded on here how people who are terribly put out by kids doing a nativity play, (or something like that) are terribly put out if another child tells them Santa Claus doesn't exist. I don't have a problem with 'Santa' visiting the school christmas party, and doling out presents, my kids know it's someone dressed up, but equally it's great fun. Couldn't you explain it in terms of 'some people believe in God, and like to thank God for the food, Mummy and Daddy don't, so why don't you think of the people who made the food when you say the grace'.That's how we've played the 'Santa' aspect of Christmas, and in fact, ds1 always dresses up as Santa (has done since he was 3) and brings presents in on Christmas afternoon.)

Hurrah for knitting - I was about to say that and..
"non believers" - pedantically I', not a non-beleiver. I do beleive and quite strongly - I beleive that there is no God; I beleive that discipline and tolerance and good manners and respect are not the preserve of Christianity (or any other religion for that matter); I believe that it is quite hard to deal with the fictitious God issue for a 5 yr old who thinks their teacher is the font of all wisdom. For those reasons (my beliefs) I would also not like the teacher to be requesting my DS to say grace as a thank you to god (am quite prepared for it to be positioned as a thank you to me!)

I do not like my beleifs being ignored by the education system and teaching DS that they know better. They don't do it wiht other faiths and I'd rather they didn't do it with mine.

I have no problem with nativity plays - its easy to explain it to DS as a story or what some people think happened, there is little direct worship or thanking god and the while dressing up business makes it feel less real and more play-like so easily dealt with.

Oh My God (sorry, please insert diety of choice here).
You lot are off your tits!!!

"It doesn't necessarily have to be a religious" - but it is. Which bit of "may the Lord make us truly thankful" do you think is not religious.

And not very tolerant calling people "tits" who don't agree with you given you value respect so highly mouse?

"Question for religous people- if I came into your schools as a teacher and made all your children thank the fairies for the food ('cause I believe that's where the food came from) would you shrug and be cool with it 'casue it doesn't matter who your being thankful too?"

The "grace" is not likely to be being said because one teacher has decided upon it. It will very likely be a school policy and tied in to the "collective worship" legislation which itself is tied into the fact (like it or not) or the UK have a state religion and being culturally and legally wholly tied into the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

Christianity is the world's biggest faith, and not a faith subscribed to by a single teacher imposing something that is rare by most people's standards (a belief in fairies) and also not a 'religion'. Given the legal status of Christianity in this country, it is not unreasonable for this short grace to be said. The children can make of it what they will - and they mostly do. As parents, we should be allowing our children to make up their own minds, and allowing them to come across religious practice as well as religious knowledge, so they can appreciate it or understand it or reject it on their own terms, not on our terms and determinations.

If you think God is fictitious, that's one thing, but seeing as the majority of the world thing differently, children should be allowed to consider the possibility of God for themselves, and reject it/accept it as they wish. That is religious freedom.

"children should be allowed to consider the possibility of God for themselves, and reject it/accept it as they wish. That is religious freedom." - I agree but not at 5 when it leads them to a confusing conflict between two authority figures (parent and teacher) who they beleive both tell the truth.

it is cruel imo to put a child up against a teacher at that age. not fair at all.

there is nothing wrong with being thankful for their dinner, they just need not to be thanking the lord.

There's only a confusing conflict if it's presented as one: a five yr old is capable of understanding that the school (not the individual teacher) says this thank-you at mealtimes but that the 'Lord' mentioned in it is something that some people believe in, and some people don't. But that the main point of the "thank-you" is to be thankful, and that's not a bad thing.

I would not under any circumstances go into the school about this ,you will be seen as some mad bint to be suspicious of ,plus if you do i can see dd being excluded from any decent nativity role in the future for fear of offending you . Can i just check ,you said the school had no right to assume you were christian ,can you describe the school population ? what % is non white british? Also i take it that you didnt get married in a church ,have not had dd christened , and will not be celebrating or marking in anyway christmas or easter ?
Are you sure a teacher told them to say grace and not another child on the table ? at our school the teachers dont eat with the kids ?

I can't see anything wrong in a general thanks for the food. Doesn't have to be religious. It's good to be aware that not everyone has enough to eat and that we are all (pretty well) in this country very fortunate not to go hungry.

i ask about the other child thing because when my ds first started school his little friend used to say grace ,did it for about a term ,until the nice tolerant atheist child told him he was stupid and his daddy said god was rubbish ,from then on he said it in his head ,bless him .

Blimey Rosieeo are you me? I've made that exact same discovery this week too! I was spitting feathers when my ds came out with pretty much that exact same prayer on the weekend. I had a word with his teacher and his school also hides under the 'collective worship' banner and as it's enshrined in the education law here (Jersey) there's naught that can be done about it. It's a state school he goes to as well, and so far I've not found another state school (I've asked some parents) who go as far as saying grace so obviously our school has interpreted that particular edict in the broadest manner possible.

The only solution I could come up with is to get the teacher (she agreed) to reiterate to these impressionable 5 year olds that they do not have to participate and can sit quietly or even give thanks to their mums for the food if they like. I have told him also that some people believe these things and some don't and it is up to him to make his own mind up. They do this grace on top of praying during assembly (more than once a week apparently) so they are definitely giving me the impression that they would prefer to be a Christian school even though it doesn't say that anywhere in their prospectus.

It makes me so incensed. This has no place in a school environment. Not everyone is Christian and it's not the 18th century anymore, last time I checked!

Off to read the rest of the thread.

Totally agree with OP, I have similar views and while not against religion and tolerant of others faiths, do not want my ds spoon fed it as 'fact'.

'Lord' and 'God', to me, just refer to a,like, higher being. Whether that's the Christian God, Jehovah, Allah, an anonymous spirt, a minor royal, whatever. I feel that that's up to us as parents to help the child to understand as we see fit and according to our own devices.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend, perhaps I'm just over simplifying a thread which I think seems to have got a bit out of hand (in some place) , hence the 'off your tits' reference .

There's much hypocricy around all this religious stuff. Religion is always going to be around and I think it's futile to pretend it isn't. We need it so we've got something to argue about!

it doesnt say thank you god for the food though does it ? its saying may god make us grateful for having it . ive never thought as grace as worship or prayer ,just a general thankyou for what we have . Im fairly sure other religeons do something similar before eating ,i know the muslim nurse i work with does ,although they could be saying ' not flipping tuna sandwhiches again' for all i know .

what's the hypocrisy here? i don't understand.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying a general thank you for the food. It's the bringing of god into the thank you that is the problem. I seriously doubt that all the Christians saying "oh it's harmless it's not a big deal to be saying thank you' would be saying that if the prayer was thanking Allah or Thor or Zeus or Gaia. I actually wouldn't have a problem if they rotated like that because at least it would acknowledge plurality of belief!

wow I killed that thread!

I mean hypocricy relating to religion in general, not specifically this thread, I was trying to be all philosophical!

You know the kind of things; wanting a church wedding, but not really giving a hoot the rest of the time, or devoutly attending church but not following basic messages like loving thy neighbour. Blowing people up in the name of God, etc.

There's loads of shit because of it, but hopefully some good stuff too, like being graceful?

but that's the point, that by sending your child to a non-denom school you should avoid all that hypocrisy, surely?

(my kid goes to a non-denom school in name only, they are pretty clear that they are churchy in the prospectus, which is fine by me.)

could the op not just explain to her dd that the grace was written back in the olden days ,when most people went to church and believed in god , she can say mummy and daddy dont believe in god or go to church , but its nice to be thankful for food because lots of children dont have any ,oh and thats also why you wont be getting any christmas presents because as we dont believe in god we wont be celebrating a christain festival

and before you all start i know the christians convieniantly celebrate christmas at around the same time as a big pagan celebration of the time .