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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Arg! Primary school is a minefield. Another one...

434 replies

Rosieeo · 29/09/2010 19:50

DD came home today and told me that her teacher makes them say grace before they eat. DD has no idea what it's all about; she thinks she's saying thank you to the person who gave her lunch, i.e. me!

The school has no religious affiliation although the prospectus alludes to 'collective daily worship'. I appreciate that schools are somewhat obliged to provide some kind of 'spiritual' stuff. I just expected it to be Harvest Festival or a few hymns in assembly.

Obviously I have no problem with religious education, as long as it is 'education' (some people believe this, others believe that) and not religion presented as fact.

I went to a CofE primary school and even they didn't make us say grace! AIBU to be vaguely annoyed/disturbed and to possibly have a quick word with the teacher?

Any thoughts? Sorry if this has been done to death by the way, DD is my eldest and this is unexplored territory.

OP posts:
LilyBolero · 01/10/2010 18:22

"
grace is prayer and worship to a christian concept of god. a classroom is a place in which children are meant to conform and not question the teacher at that age. it is inapropriate therefore for teachers to bring religion practice of their own into the classroom.

tolerance is about respecting and knowing about religion, not agreeing to have it imposed on others."

Well, this is what the law says;
Link

" All maintained schools in England must provide a daily act of collective worship. This must reflect the traditions of this country which are, in the main, broadly Christian.

Parents have the right to withdraw their child from the daily act of collective worship and sixth-formers can decide for themselves whether or not to attend, without giving a reason for doing so. Schools must comply with this wish and must ensure a duty of care for pupils who are withdrawn from collective worship."

So it is not correct to state that a teacher "is welcome to be deluded, she is not welcome to try to induce others to be deluded with her."

swallowedAfly · 01/10/2010 18:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

pickledsiblings · 01/10/2010 18:34

Is it really that difficult to tell your DD that different people believe different things wrt religion? It introduces the idea of faith and that no one knows who is right or who is wrong. That is a great leveler and covers atheism as well.

You don't seem like an 'anything for an easy life' kind of person, hence the hmm face.

Original poster
Rosieeo · 01/10/2010 18:46

Lily I understand the collective worship bit. But how can I withdraw my child from lunch?

pickled I meant that it's very easy to say 'Yes, God/Father Christmas/The Tooth Fairy is real', but when I explained to DD that some people believe that there is a supernatural being who is the creator and ruler of the universe and some people don't, she didn't quite get it. It wasn't as simple as 'yes, it's real'. So no, it isn't that difficult to explain the concept. Whether or not it's understood is another matter. She's four.

I suppose I'm not an 'anything for an easy life' kind of person. I didn't realise that that was a quality I should strive to achieve. Yeah, sod what I think, owt for an easy life. As long as other people are happy, that's ok.

OP posts:
LilyBolero · 01/10/2010 18:50

You clearly don't have to withdraw her from lunch, just explain to her and the teacher that you don't want her to say the grace before hand.

With regard to the 'is it real' just say "I don't believe it is".

crazycanuck · 01/10/2010 19:24

Rosieeo I did what lilyBolero says above - I explained to the teacher that I didn't want ds saying grace and please could she make clear that he could sit quietly and not have to participate. That evening I explained to him that some people believe these things and some people don't. He said 'Well I don't believe them' and I told him that was fine, he can make up his own mind (and before anyone accuses me of influencing him in that direction, it has not come up before and he did not know how dh and I stand on it).

It still rankles me that they are doing it and even though students aren't 'forced' to participate, there is no need for this to be occurring in an educational environment. I agree with everything swallowedAFLY has posted.

Canada is also a Christian country insofar as it was founded on Christian principles but they have gotten rid of this ridiculous worship requirement in non-faith schools (I have friends with children in Canadian schools, plus I went to primary school there and we certainly never said grace or had prayers/hymns during assemblies).

barnsleybelle · 01/10/2010 19:48

Slumber said earlier"i am not tolerant of anybody attempting to indoctrinate children with their own belief systems or rituals"

But arn't you trying to impose your own belief systems on your own children ?

crazycanuck · 01/10/2010 20:00

No, it's more a case of keeping it 'neutral' until they are old enough to make up their own mind.

Original poster
Rosieeo · 01/10/2010 20:09

crazycanuck I think that is what I'm going to ask them to do when I manage to see them for more than five seconds. Thanks for your input on this, it's really helpful.

Barnsley not sure if that was directed at me or not but here goes. DD simply does not understand the concept of god as it isn't something that's come up until now. I suppose you could argue that I've imposed my beliefs on her by not educating her on this subject, but I think we'd be getting on to a whole different argument. I don't feel that I have a belief system, more of an absence of belief/faith/whatever you want to call it. So there has been no belief system to impose. We have tried to give our children a moral structure to guide them in their everyday lives, but it has not included religion. I have to admit that it has made questions about death complicated as my answers are not as comforting as I imagine a religious response would be.

I have not told DD what to think. I have not told her that religion is false and these entities do not exist, although if she asked me what I thought I would tell her.

Is that imposing your beliefs on your child?

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 01/10/2010 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

wisteria12 · 01/10/2010 20:42

My DC's school isn't religious but they have a wonderful grace that I totally support. Instead of addressing any God or bowing their heads, they turn to the people next to them and shake hands like you do in church, and they say "Peace and happiness to you, and jolly good eating too." If it sounds bizarre it's because it was invented by the schoolmaster in Victorian times, who was a pretty eccentric chap. I think it has a great message, though and is universal for all faiths/no faith.

theslumbertaker · 01/10/2010 20:45

barnsley it seems as though you are deliberately misunderstanding the point here. how can you interpret that we are trying to impose our beliefs onto our children.

rosieeo has very patiently explained this yet again above.

this discussion is becoming ridiculously circular because some posters are just ignoring what the op is saying.

i wouldn't waste your time any more rosieeo, it is like banging your head against a brick wall

theslumbertaker · 01/10/2010 20:47

wisteria, that is a great saying! i wouldn't object to that at all. how lovely!

barnsleybelle · 01/10/2010 21:14

My point is, you object to the teacher asking them to say grace, which i assume you feel is forcing them to say something you don't agree with.

By asking them as a parent not to say grace then you are forcing them to do something for yourself.

Parents have a powerful influence over children and I for one, want my children to make their own minds up about things and not believe something simply because I do.

At then end of the day, it's grace for crying out loud, what harm can it do ?

I would hazard a guess all the practising christians ( parents ) at the school wouldn't so much as bat an eyelid over a child deciding for themselves not to take part, yet non believing parents seem to get themselves in such a state over it all.

barnsleybelle · 01/10/2010 21:16

And rose, my comments were not directed at you, who have posted at all times with respect and intelligence.

theslumbertaker · 01/10/2010 21:33
Confused
Aitch · 01/10/2010 22:01

god, the attitudes on here towards atheists absolutely stink.

LilyBolero · 01/10/2010 22:20

Aitch, I really don't think that's true, and I Think it's often the Christians who get the bashing tbh - people often refer to Christianity as 'superstitious nonsense' which, granted may be how they feel about it, but is pretty intolerant and offensive if you do happen to believe it.

Tolerance on both sides is required I think.

MouseCostume · 01/10/2010 22:21

Aitch, who or what are you addressing there? Grin
Barnsley, how can a 5yo make thier minds up without the opinions of those they love to go on, even if it is just 'til they grow up enough to make choices of thier own?
We just present our ideas and beliefs as one way of looking at things and always aknowledge other ways/ faiths/ religions etc and explain them as we can respectfully, hopefully leading the way to well informed choices in the future. But Op's DD is only 5

Aitch · 01/10/2010 22:29

i think she's four.
nonsense re tolerance, lily, take any issues about superstition comments out of this, the OP has been unfailingly polite and respectful. this is a thread about a non-denom school that is teaching kids that there is a god and that they should be grateful to HIM for filling their tummies every day.

it's not intolerant at all to query that and find the idea of having to instruct a four year old to go against the wishes of her teacher absolutely hideous. they bloody worship those teachers (and long may it continue) it's a disgraceful burden to make the child absent herself from something that the whole class is doing when the alternative, a grace where they are encouraged to think themselves fortunate, is a doddle to do. easy for the teacher to change, difficult for the child to opt out... teacher changes. easy peasy.

sunshineriver · 01/10/2010 22:54

If you went to someone's house for dinner and they promted you to say Grace before you ate - I expect that you'd join in out of respect for them and their beliefs.

I don't understand why it is any different at school...

It is, as PPs have said, only a few seconds in the day and it does teach the children that they all have to wait and all start eating together.

Aitch · 01/10/2010 23:00

bonkers. absolutely bonkers.

theslumbertaker · 01/10/2010 23:04

sunshine. if i went to someone's house for dinner, and they 'prompted me to say grace', i would be somewhat surprised, but would politely explain that i am an atheist, therefore would not be joining in. i would sit quietly and respectfully whilst they said grace, but i would expect the hosts to respect my right to individuality as i do theirs

MouseCostume · 01/10/2010 23:19

Religion is a personal thing, we all get that and are tolerant and respect each other etc.

What I don't get is why a non-denom school alludes to collective worship, or for that matter practices any at all, Christian or otherwise (aside form the RE lessons, so not worship, but education).

Surely to worship is a religious act, you need a denomination to worship?!

Sorry, I knew Op's DD was young, thread too long to trawl back through! Blush

LilyBolero · 01/10/2010 23:24

Aitch, to be fair, I don't think anyone has suggested it is up to the child to say anything, but a quiet word from the parent would probably suffice. And tbh, I'm not quite sure why that isn't the OP's first response, though yes, I would agree she has been very polite throughout. If a parent was to say to the teacher that they were uncomfortable about their child saying grace, because they were atheists, I would lay bets that the teacher would accommodate that, probably by constructing a non-specific thanksgiving or something like that. But I don't think anyone has said it's up to the CHILD, and I certainly wouldn't have any problem speaking to a teacher if there was an equivalent issue with my children's class.

And whilst the OP has been polite, others on the thread have been fairly vile about Christians. Terms such as 'virgin birth shit' - whatever you believe, whether you think it's literally true, or more of a legend, or total rubbish, it's pretty rude to describe part of someone's religion as such. So I don't think the atheists have a monopoly on feeling aggrieved.