Arg! Primary school is a minefield. Another one...

[Rosieeo]

DD came home today and told me that her teacher makes them say grace before they eat. DD has no idea what it's all about; she thinks she's saying thank you to the person who gave her lunch, i.e. me!

The school has no religious affiliation although the prospectus alludes to 'collective daily worship'. I appreciate that schools are somewhat obliged to provide some kind of 'spiritual' stuff. I just expected it to be Harvest Festival or a few hymns in assembly.

Obviously I have no problem with religious education, as long as it is 'education' (some people believe this, others believe that) and not religion presented as fact.

I went to a CofE primary school and even they didn't make us say grace! AIBU to be vaguely annoyed/disturbed and to possibly have a quick word with the teacher?

Any thoughts? Sorry if this has been done to death by the way, DD is my eldest and this is unexplored territory.

Actually, harvest assembly type songs are likely to be far more controversial, as they tend to be quite creationist - "Who put the colours in the rainbow?" etc! Or "We plough the fields and scatter..."

Lily you make some very good points and I like your Father Christmas one.

"would probably manage to do it without saying shit or fuck" - I'm sure slumber manages to talk to her children without saying shit or fuck too! Its you she's swearing at and whilst I can see you don't like swearing, using swear words hardly loses you the argument!

I would probably also go along with the majoirty view in a country which does not pin its tolerance to the mast. You cannot preach tolerance to all other beliefs except atheism.

As I said other schools manage to negotiate this and saying grace daily is a step more than those of us whose beliefs don't include a god think is reasonable.

I went to a Catholic school and as a non-ccatholic I was not expected to particupate in any of the religious element of the school. and this was in the early 70's, in anotehr country. Hardly a combination that is rekowned for its tolerance of other beliefs - and yet they managed just fine to accomodate non-catholics wihtout expecting them to mouth meaningless sentiments just to go along with the majority view .

Is it really beyond the teacher to reword the "grace" to become a simpler "thanksgiving"? Why turn something which could be meaningful to all into something which won't apply to about 10 childrne in the class. Because we do most of us have much to be thankful for.

No, but it doesn't demonstrate tolderance.

what doesn't?

Using swear words. It doesn't demonstrate tolerance in someone appealing for it.

appletrees i apologise if i offended you with my profanities. i'm afraid that i was getting rather frusrated with the posters last night, including yourself, who appeared to be deliberately ignoring or misinterpreting parts of the argument they disagree with.

i in fact am a very tolerant person in general, including of other people's religious beliefs, or lack of. however i am not tolerant of anybody attempting to indoctrinate children with their own belief systems or rituals. i am also pretty intolerant of people who try to justify such behaviour.

Kewcumber you are bang on about everyone except atheists being catered for. I asked ds teacher if they mentioned during their RE lessons that there are some people who do not believe in any deity at all and she completely avoided the question by going on about how they were learning about the different communities that people live in. It seems society would rather stick it's fingers in it's ears and go 'lalalala' than admit that atheists make up a significant minority of the population.

Oh that's rubbish, ds1 has been taught about all religions at school, including the fact that many people choose to have no religion. And he is at a church school!

Well they're not taught that at our school.

I really haven't missed any points. Nor am I offended.

Britain is an exceptionally tolerant country. grace is not ramming: a word to the child and the teacher and the situation is resolved. Intoletance is insisting it doesn't happen at all. But it is a Christian country so it is only to be expected that Christianity will be a small element sometimes.

Can i just reiterate that the grace the child is being asked to say does not say thankyou to god ,but that may god make me truly grateful. As i said previously it would be simple to explain to the little girl ,that this was written in the olden days when more people did believe in god/go to church ,that mummy and daddy dont believe in god ,so dont think god is making their dd grateful ,but she can be grateful all by herself for the food she is about to recieve.Sorted. As for this grace alienating people of other faiths ,er ,well Allah is another name for god ,just as jehovah is and a multitude of other names and the saying of grace or a blessing is very common in other religions .
Good luck rosieeo ,sorry if ive come over as particularly stroppy ,got raging pmt exacerbated by useless husband syndrome, i really hope you sort this out to your satisfaction and without any reprecussions to your dd's enjoyment of school .

"Lord" is not an exclusively Christian word - I think it is a pretty inclusive one actually. Having no religious affiliation means that the school doesn't subscribe to any one religion over another. There is no problem here OP.

BTW, you might want to rethink this:

"I've discovered it's much easier to tell them that something is real (Father Christmas) than it is to tell them that you don't believe in something but that other people do (God)."

so who are atheists worshipping when they say lord? a cricket ground?

Grace is an antidote to smuggery and taking gfor granted one's privilege and good fortune... atheists could count their blessings or thank lady luck I suppose.

Oh you don't do blessings. Lucky stars then.

'no religious affiliation' does not equal atheist Aitch

the use of Lord in many religions

"it would be simple to explain to the little girl ,that this was written in the olden days when more people did believe in god/go to church ,that mummy and daddy dont believe in god"

No need for stuff about "more people believed in the old days" - there are still a very large majority of people who believe in a God (both Christian and those of other faiths): that kind of phrasing makes it sound to the child that faith and belief is something people did in the past and not needed today. This is the adult's perspective being brought to bear on the explanation.

"Some people believe in God, some don't - it's up to you what you think about it all" is a more open line. Tolerance means tolerance both ways - for a thirty-second grace, as well as for those children who might choose not to say it.

i have sent MY child to a fairly religious school, they DO say grace there, i'm all in favour of it, because they are perfectly clear in the prospectus.

i cannot see why the religious types on this thread are so threatened by atheism that they lose the sense that god gave them/ they were born with and acknowledge that 'thanking the LORD' makes fuck-all use to an atheist.

and appletrees, for the gazillionth time on this thread, there is nothing wrong with being grateful for good fortune, it's putting that good fortune down to the benevolence of a deity that is the problem for atheists.

pickledsiblings Why the hmm face?

On the hymns front, for me personally it's similar to the nativity issue. I don't necessarily agree with the content of many songs on the radio ('Just gonna stand there and watch me burn but that's alright because I like the way it hurts', for example!) but that doesn't mean I won't hum it if the tune's ok.

You can't avoid all references to religion (and why would I want to?) but that doesn't mean that I or my children should be expected to worship.

Purely out of interest, I assume that those saying it shouldn't be a problem are Christian? If your children were attending a school with a religious element other than your own, would you tell them to follow the alternative prayers and views?