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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that truely feminist stance on prostitution, is to support legalisation?

589 replies

StuckInTheMiddleWithYou · 21/09/2010 18:00

I recently moved to an inner city area.

There is a known brothel here and a homeless shelter.

I have seen some very sad, desperate sights walking past our home lately.

I wouldn't want any child of mine involved in this trade, however this does strike as something which desperately needs regulating - for the sake of the women, girls and boys involved.

Prohibition has failed miserably.

AIBU?

OP posts:
dittany · 22/09/2010 11:18

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BlackBess · 22/09/2010 11:18

I meant WAITROSE dammit

dittany · 22/09/2010 11:23

This reply has been deleted

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Aitch · 22/09/2010 11:24

no no, not true at all, i asked if you were a namechanger, not if you'd come from somewhere else. and i didn't tell you to shut up, just to stop taking the piss. i am genuinely interested in anything you have to say about your work, just don't want to have to wade through a load of piss-taking 'statistics'.

BlackBess · 22/09/2010 11:25

Do you have any facts to support your argument Dittany?. No? Nobody has any facts not Saltatrix not you, not me.

Lets not get the lack of facts get in the way of anything. It's tedious

Heracles · 22/09/2010 11:25

"scumbag punters"

The balanced approach.

"I know quite a few women"

The empirical approach.

"Why don't you just piss off"

The respectful approach.

It's hard to see why you're not being taken more seriously, ditt.....

BlackBess · 22/09/2010 11:28

Yeah you told me to shut up and then you called me a nob. Naturally I'd cry if I had a heart, but I don't so no harm done.

I will continue to take the piss Aich but you are welcome to continue being offended.

Portofino · 22/09/2010 11:28

Also from that article:

"Only 34% (52/153) of prostitutes who had experienced violence by clients reported it to the police"

"The range and content of comprehensive health services for prostitutes is an area that should be addressed with some urgency if levels of morbidity and mortality from violence by clients is to be reduced."

Now tell me how things will improve, if you take away access to the police and medical help because you don't want to draw attention to your "criminal" behaviour.

BlackBess · 22/09/2010 11:33

The issue with women not reporting violence to the police is not an issue with the police per se. It's fear of being exposed in the papers. The police were great in my area

Aitch · 22/09/2010 11:36

whatever, blackbess. you seem very defensive for someone who is so happy in their work.

ccpccp · 22/09/2010 11:38

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dittany · 22/09/2010 11:39

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BlackBess · 22/09/2010 11:41

ok sorry Portofino, that was a careless response. I was refering to how it was in the past-I dread to think what it's like now with all the crackdowns.

A woman who I knew worked in a flat with a collective of women for many years. She had a great relationship with the police and passed on intelligence to them regarding dangerous men. and in turn they used to call at the flat regularly to see if the women were ok etc.

She protected a girl who was hiding from a violent boyfriend. This boyfriend broke into the flat and tried to attack the girl. The police were called and arrested him.

HOWEVER the case went to the CPS who in turn put pressure on the police to prosecute the woman for running a brothel (her name was on the lease). This was a direct result of all the media nonsense surrounding Operation pentameter.

Police lost a vital source of information, the girls lost a safe place to work.

She was not a criminal, she helped a lot of the vunerable women described on this thread.

Heracles · 22/09/2010 11:41

Ah you see, I guess we disagree at the very first point. I'm not interested, nor do I even see it as a worthwhile goal, to eliminate the sex industry.

Saltatrix · 22/09/2010 11:46

The UK Network of Sex Work Projects, whose outreach workers deal with thousands of prostitutes, told the home affairs select committee last year: "It is undoubtedly the case that women are trafficked into the sex industry. However, the proportion of sex workers of whom this is true is relatively small, both compared to the sex industry as a whole and to other industries." The chairman of that committee, Keith Vaz, observed: "We are told that this is the second largest problem facing the globe after drugs and we do not seem to be able to find the people responsible."

For the police, the misinformation has succeeded in diverting resources away from other victims. Specialist officers who deal with trafficking have told the Guardian that although they will continue to monitor all forms of trafficking, they are now shifting their priority away from the supposed thousands of sex slaves towards the movement within the UK of children who are being sexually abused. They say they are also dealing with more cases where illegal migrant workers of all kinds, including willing sex workers, find themselves being ripped off and overcharged for their transport.

Ruth Breslin, research and development manager for Eaves, which runs the Poppy project, said: "I realise that the 25,000 figure, which is one that has been bandied about in the media, is one that doesn't really have much of an evidence base and may be slightly subject to media hype. There is an awful lot of confusion in the media and other places between trafficking (unwilling victims) and smuggling (willing passengers). People do get confused and they are two very different things."

She said that in the six and a half years since Poppy was founded, a total of 1,387 men and women had been referred to them, of whom they had taken in just over 500 women who they believed had been trafficked into sexual exploitation or domestic servitude by the use of coercion, deception or force. "I do think that there a lot more trafficked women out there than the women we see in our project. I do think there are significant numbers. I would say the figure is in the thousands. I don't know about the tens of thousands. That's probably going too far."

However, the key point is that on the sidelines of a debate which has been dominated by ideology, a chorus of alarm from the prostitutes themselves is singing out virtually unheard.

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/trafficking-numbers-women-exaggerated

As for the saying some don't do it for drugs well I expressly said some posts back that some women do it in order to get the money to feed their drug habit. But by that reasoning any job which a person does in order to get money to pay for drugs should be illegal.

jenny60 · 22/09/2010 11:51

Christ almighty: amazing how all the loons crawl out of the woodwork when they see a threat to their right to have sex with women when and how they like. I can see both sides of the argument but I think that, given the social and economic status of most prostitutes, any attempt to legalise the 'industry' will be primarily done to make services easier, cleaner, more pleasant and safer for the 'clients'. If anyone really cared about the women, more brothels would have been closed down, punters arrested and women taken out of the horrible circumstances that took them into that world in the first place. Making this industry legal gives it a veneer of respectability when what we really need to be saying is that this is not the way for a society to conduct itself. Maybe in a perfecct world where we had genuine equality the buying and selling of sexual services would be ok. But while we KNOW that most prostitutes go into this work through desperation, that many are trafficked, that many experience violence and rape on the job, how can making it more respectable help these women? Prostitution exists because ome men think they 'need', sex and that they have a right to sex. They need to learn that they don't, not be offered it on a plate.

Heracles · 22/09/2010 11:55

"They need to learn that they don't, not be offered it on a plate."

Why?

BlackBess · 22/09/2010 11:55

Defensive Aich? hahaha ! You bloody wish.
Why does my flippancy upset you so much?. Should I take my victimhood more seriously? Walk about with my eyes downcast or something? Grin

Aitch · 22/09/2010 11:56

amen, jenny60. it's shocking that the idea that men DON'T have an undeniable right to pay for sex is so revolutionary.

dittany · 22/09/2010 11:57

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Aitch · 22/09/2010 11:58

oh god that's not what i am saying at all, blackbess... look, do what you want, but your attempts at humour just make you appear oddly defensive when if you were treating the subject more seriously it might be possible to take your points more seriously. whatever...

Portofino · 22/09/2010 11:58

"How does decriminalising women in prostitution, and offering them services to escape the life deny them access to the police and to medical services? Please explain."

Um, you're the one who is talking about making the sex industry illegal. I am for greater regulation. I think women should have much greater access to services and that pushing it underground will have the opposite effect. Making it illegal does NOT make it go away FFS.

dittany · 22/09/2010 12:05

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jenny60 · 22/09/2010 12:11

Heracles: because actually they don't, not according to the UN's Universal Charter of for Human Rights, or any bill of rights that I know of. We ALL, on the other hand, have a right to the following:

Article 3.

* Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.

* No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.

* No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

How can it be that the rights above are denied to prostituted women daily, but a punter's 'right' to sex (most often with a drugged, desperate, quite possibly trafficked, unwiling, scared and quite possibly traumatized woman) must be upheld at all costs?

vesuvia · 22/09/2010 12:17

BlackBess wrote - "She was not a criminal".

So why did the lawyers at the CPS think she was?

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