AIBU to think the reason some NHS trusts dont let you know the sex...

[SloanyPony]

...is nothing to do with that old chestnut that "some cultures will act on the information" (i.e have a termination if its the "wrong" sex)

And that this explanation was something designed by someone not very nice to incite racial hatred, or at best a cultural generalisation gone wrong that has somehow become "fact".

Regardless of culture/religion, surely if a person has a preference for a baby of a particular sex, they would find out earlier - or in any event, would pay privately? Seriously if its that important to you that you would terminate a pregnancy over it, surely you can find £70 for a gender scan?

Does anyone actually know? Anyone worked for a hospital and seen it in writing in a policy? Anyone got anything concrete other than anecdotal whispers that this is the reason?

Because it seems more likely to me that the reson some trusts do not tell is because they dont have time to prat about if the baby is in the wrong position, trying to find a willy or lack of one. Its an anomaly scan, nothing else, and that's what you get.

There must be someone on Mumsnet who has a really good retort for people who spout this as the reason they are not "allowed" to find out the sex - "its all their fault" bollix. Help me out, as I'm sick of hearing it. (Unless I am really wrong, I stand corrected if so)

And if I'm wrong and that is actually the reason, feel free to tell me AIBU but preferably give me more than some anecdotal evidence.

I'm not starting this thread to cause a ruck by the way, this is something that's always made my teeth itch but I've never had anything "official" enough to put a stop to the notion and I'd like to.

Thanks.

I suppose the MW could have been the racist one, she seemed OK but who can know?

Beijingaling is correct - I had DD in Shanghai and the ultrasound screens were turned away from us from about 16 weeks, lest we glimpse anything ourselves.

The year DD was born (2008), there were 126 boys to every 100 girls born - far outside any naturally possible distribution.

The problem is that if there ever was a policy on cultural grounds, it would have to be blanket for discrimination reasons, and the risk of legal action for discrimination is far higher than for "wrong sex cost". It would be difficult for any trust to say or enact such a policy for different cultural groups, and is a very sensitive area, making trusts vulnerable.

I think the helpful explanation given by the sonographer above is more likely to be closer to the truth, however. It's not necessary to know the sex and rather a luxury when time resources are restricted.

And it doesn't really matter about private scans being available: the NHS itself could not be seen to be party to any such practice as termination for gender reasons.

Why then, do some trusts allow it and others not? That's the bit that gets me. If the NHS have a line on it, it should be standard across the UK.

Some parts allow it, go 5 miles down the road and they dont. And these geograhical locations dont even correlate with the demographics you would think would be "disallowed".

Its the inconsistency that gets me. I dont really give a shiny whether they tell or not. But annoys me that some people get to find out and others dont.

Thats a point, I live in the whitest white bread neigborhood you can live in and we still don't have the option of finding out sex. I really don't believe there is any cultural reasoning behind it all.

I had my first baby in St George's in Tooting - a very racially mixed area. Often I'd be the only person in the waiting room at my ante-natal appointments that had come without an interpreter. But they would have told us if we'd wanted to know. So I doubt it's to do with 'culture'.

My best friend found out at her 20 week scan that the baby she was carrying had spina bifida and hydrocephalus and would have been paralysed and brain damaged. She and her husband took the heartbreaking decision to terminate the pregnancy. She had to go through labour and they later had a very small private funeral for their little boy. Happily they now have a gorgeous, healthy baby boy.

Because of that I HATE when I hear people talk about the 20-week scan as a 'sexing' scan. I think, like the sonographer on here wrote, you should be so grateful they can see if your baby is healthy, that finding out the gender should really be an afterthought.

I don't believe anyone could sue successfully, and not just because of all the discliamers. BaggedandTagged is right: what's your loss? the information is so unsure it's not reasonable to act on it to your detriment, like spending £££ on a pink or blue nursery.

Anyway, surely it's against public policy to let people sue because they got the 'wrong' sex baby and it's a disappointment?

'you should be so grateful they can see if your baby is healthy, that finding out the gender should really be an afterthought.'

Quite. And people who terminate a healthy foetus at 30 weeks are, IMHO, doing something quite evil. And I don't care what 'cultural' or social reasons they may have.

The NHS thinks information is a priviledge of the beholder and not a right of the patient. I find this attitude to be totally outrageous... but it is rampant throughout the NHS. I went for a private nuchal and was told very confidentally at 12 weeks that the baby is a boy. I then went on to have a CVS which confirmed boy chromosomes. So I don't believe for a second that the willie is too small to see at 20 weeks.

When I have my NHS nuchal the sonographer didn't want to tell me the nuchal measurement. I was gobsmacked. How can she think that information is not mine for the asking.

She did tell me, but only when I dragged it out of her.

I can assure you its not because people may sue. I am currently suing for genuine medical negligence and am still jumping through hoops for that.

I imagine wrong baby sex would = tough

I can assure you its not because people may sue. I am currently suing for genuine medical negligence and am still jumping through hoops for that.

I imagine wrong baby sex would = tough

Haven't read the replies, but from what I understand in our area there are 2 reasons for them not revealing the sex, number one is that the 20 week scan is seen as a medical procedure to determine how the baby is developing ect, so the focus should not be on the sex of the baby and second being that a few mistakes were made when they did do it many years ago and the trust felt they were leaving themselves open to being sued ect, even though they stated it isn't 100% accurate.

Agree abr1de though do feel suty bound to point out they cannot see your baby is healthy, only that some SNs are absent (Mum to 2 autistic children, can't be picked up on scans).

Where we are- Shropshire they will not tell you the sex of the baby on the anomaly scan but if you are willing to part with 40 quid then they will book a seperate scan to tell you so surely it must be about the money and not any other reasons.

True, Santas. I have another friend with a child who was born with very severe SNs that weren't picked up.

In her case it wouldn't have made any difference, though, had she known. She adored her daughter, who sadly died aged five, having been very loved all her short life.

Fortunately our ds's don;t ahve a life limiting disorder, but we'd also have continued with the pregnancies.

Though sometimes I wish we'd had the choice as the worst thing IMO about being a carer is the alck of choice: had I amde that choice, i might struggle less to accept the limitations

You're bloody lucky you even get a 20 week anomaly scan...I didn't on my last 2 pregnancies.

Its typical of people who are used to having an excellent service like the nhs to take it for granted...whine whine whine I want I want sort of attitude.
Thats not what the scans are for and if you want to play spot the penis pony up the cash to go private.

My sonographer happily told me the gender at 19 weeks and to be honest, she almost let it slip before she'd checked we wanted to know. She through in a little gender stereotyping too for good measure.

The sonographer was confident we're having a girl because she'd been so good during the scan and lay in all the right positions.

Littlenuttree timewasters are absolutely the reason why our local NHS doesn't disclose gender (think I've mentioned this earlier on this thread, way back in the mists of time). Friend is a sonographer/midwife and they are too busy with medically necessary scans at our hospital and since they've stopped telling people, it has made a discernable difference.

Friend told me of one occasion where one mum to be at about 30 plus weeks was scanned but unfortunately the baby was dead. The midives were trying to break this news to her as gently as possible but she refused to believe the scan, openly saying she was lying about having been bleeding when she wasn't to get an extra scan to double check the gender. Horrible, horrible situation.

^The NHS thinks information is a priviledge of the beholder and not a right of the patient. I find this attitude to be totally outrageous... but it is rampant throughout the NHS. I went for a private nuchal and was told very confidentally at 12 weeks that the baby is a boy. I then went on to have a CVS which confirmed boy chromosomes. So I don't believe for a second that the willie is too small to see at 20 weeks.

When I have my NHS nuchal the sonographer didn't want to tell me the nuchal measurement. I was gobsmacked. How can she think that information is not mine for the asking.

She did tell me, but only when I dragged it out of her^

While I can't speak for other trusts, this is not the case in ours. We talk our patients through the scan, pointing out what we are looking at on the screen and confirming normality of anatomy and measurements as we go along. If an abnormality is found we break the news as gently as possible at the time. Everything we have seen is mentioned in the report which is put into the patient's hand held notes, so these are available for them to read at any time, including the nuchal measurement.

It's not that the penis is too small to see at 20 weeks - it's that sometimes the position of the baby or the fact that its legs are crossed, or hands between the legs, mean that you cannot see the area in question. If we had unlimited time we could probably see, as the baby would move eventually, but NHS scans are time constrained so this is not possible

Again - the nuchal scan is even more time constrained than the 20 week scan. We have 20 minutes to get the patient in the room, assess identity, take a medical history, scan and do the report which includes 4 forms and writing in the patients hand held notes. At least 50% of babies are not in the right position for NT measurements so these patients take extra time as we try to get the baby to move. It would be impossible for us to add in gender assessment at this stage without extending the appointment time.

As far as being able to assess gender at 12 weeks - I have seen private clinics claiming to be able to tell with 100% certainty at this stage but I am very sceptical. But I do accept that it may be possible to tell with reasonable certainty at a private scan as more time is available for assessment.

Sorry - the first three paragraphs of the post above are quoted from Strix. Italics didnt work!

I take your point that all trusts (or perhaps sonographers) are different, but I have definitely run across several people / trusts in the NHS who don't like to share the information they have.

In my recent nuchal scan example she flew through the measurements not speaking a word to us. We had been for a similar private scan that morning and not received a great nuchal reading. So we were very keen to see her reading. It went so fast I couldn't read it. So when she finished, the following conversation took place:

me: I missed the nuchal measurement. What was it?
Sonographer: I didn't tell you.
me: I know. That's why I'm asking.
pause
Sonographer: 1.2

Then, when I had the routine mini GTT I got a letter saying it was abnormal and needed to return for full GTT to check for gestational diabetes. But, why don't they tell patients in that letter what the reading was and what normal is. I get the feeling they think I'm too stupid to to be trusted with this information.

I'm under Addenbrookes and they couldn't have been more helpful and informative. Mind you, they said we were having boy/girl twins at 12 weeks (they said they couldn't be sure but it was highly likely!) and at 20 weeks we found out it's defo twin boys! Oops!

I had to call for some blood results though, and the maternity receptionist wouldn't give me them and said "you won't understand them"! I assured her I absolutely would and she finally relented, like she was doing me a favour!

We asked at 20 week scan (at end, once she had established it all all normal) and were told (big teaching hospital in London), then told everyone..... and yes did keep on saying to DH wish I hadn't said anything what if its wrong??

Then we were invited to another scan at 36 weeks because I changed hospitals and I did find myself thinking I wish they'd check again its a boy.... although I didn't ask - although she did ask me if I knew and I said I did.

So do see the point about the extra scans.

However with DD 20 week scan took so long because she was in wrong position I didn't ask because they spent about 3x the alloted time on us already. At 25 weeks I had an extra scan because I was in a research study due to medical condition, and the consultant (not sonographer) doing the scan (with about 10 others doctors watching) etc was geniunely surprised I didn't know, and took time to show girl and was "extremely" sure. So don't think it can be suing.

I don't buy the bit about terminations as if you really were the sort of person who would consider this you'd pay the £50 or whatever for a sexing scan.