To be very upset by friend demanding something back given to me 15 years ago??

[rockinhippy]

I'll try not to ramble, but already feeling ill & now very upset, so excuse me if I do....I would apreciate opinions as to whether or not I am being unreasonable in, a being upset, & b, refusing.

Some 16 odd years ago, probably much more, ........my friend ...(who is one of my DDs 2 GodMums) gave me a vintage astrakan coat, passed to her by her uncle, but not her style at all, but very much mine..........she said at the time something along the lines of "if you change your mind & don't wear it, or want it in future, don't get rid of it, but let me have it back, maybe I'll keep it or pass it on"

Now I love this coat, repaired the lining & keep it for winter going out for special occasions & have looked after it well, so its still in as new condition

the other day I recieved an e-mail, telling me her DD now 17 had been looking through old family photos, & has fell in love with this coat...& wondered if I still had it & was it used..& could she have it back....at first I was confused & thought she meant a 1 she had passed over to my DD....

e-mail yesterday clarified what she meant....so I replied saying, yes, I still love it & wear it with pride & even included a recent photo (we don't live close to each other anymore)

Just now recieved a reply along the lines of....

Sadly DD feels just as strongly about the coat & DD takes precedence over friend, will be popping down to your town next Monday I will collect it then

and the family heirloom excuse is a load of cock, its a coat fgs, not a diamond ring

Um not all of us have diamonds in our family!

I've got a tea cup and an old recorder

"Indian giver"?! Nasty expression.

You're not unreasonable and she's very cheeky.

But, on the bright side, you now deserve a good coat. There is something creepy about Astrakhan coats.

What was her response?

sanille, yes but did you give them away and expect them back 15 years later?

The point has been made vinegartits that both clearly have different ideas of a conversation that took place 15 years ago.

It could be she thought she would loan i until she wanted it back or her 2 year old could fit it.. which she does now!

Well - as I also said, theyoungvisitor, if the OP's friend thought it was a loan, why didn't she mention it when she asked for the coat back?

And the original email from the friend asked if Rockinhippy still had the coat - which clearly implies that the friend thought she might not have it any longer - why would she think that Rockinhippy would give away a coat that had been loaned to her? Surely she'd only think the coat might have been given away if she knew she'd given it to Rockin in the first place?

Well, is it real astrakan or not?
Surely a teenager would not want to wear the real thing.
Not very 'right on' is it?

LOL Sanielle - ive got a cut glass crystal fruit bowl , left to me from my much loved and sorely missed grandmother ....i wouldnt ever give it away .
Sort of proves my point if it means that much , you cant part with it.

YANBU. Yor friend sounds like a twat who can't say 'no' to her daughter.

I have never in my life heard of loaning someone your family heirloom?

Gah! How very odd.

Tell your 'friend' it's your coat and you have absolutly zero intention of giving it to her.

What a weirdo.

I used to deal in vintage and I've never seen an astrakhan coat go for anywhere near that much.Also what most people refer to as Astrakhan here is the fake boucle wool version,the real version tends to be called Persian lamb.The coat is unlikely to be worth more than £100 tops unless it has very extreme 40's styling.Anyway,I think she obviously has always thought of the coat as being on a long loan,rather than a true gift,as it has family history for her.I can understand her wanting it back,she probably thought you'd lost interest in it when she initially wanted it for her DD and now her DD is so keen she just wants it to be in the family.Annoying,as you love it,but I think you need to trawl the vintage fairs for another one.They used to be ten a penny but are harder to find now,but you will get lucky in the end.

that's unresonable. but hand the coat over anywy, not worth an argument.

I can imagine an alternative OP

'15 years ago my uncle gave me his coat. I didn't like it that much so I lent it to my friend. She knows it was a loan because I told her to pass it back to me when she had finished with it and not to get rid of it. I forgot all about it until my 17 year old daughter saw it in a photo and asked whether I still had it as she'd like to wear it. I contacted my friend and she does still have it so I asked for it back. Now she's getting stroppy with me'.

She saw it as a loan. You saw it as a gift. I'd give it back and go and buy a new coat.

I think at 17 her daughter is old enough to realise that you can't have everything you want and that the fact her mother has given the coat to someone else means she can't have it.

She said she'd have it back if you didn't wear it, well you do wear it.

Saying that, I think she is BU for asking for it back, very cheeky. But if one of my friends did put me in this situation I would feel I had to give it back. But maybe ask for the money for the repair!

First of all why presume a teenager will not cherish it as much as you do?

I agree you were both young at the time and she probably wasn't completely sure about giving it to you - it's a shame to punish her for that now. She should have made it clearer at the time she might want to pass it on one day butperhaps she was afraid to sound rude, or thought you'd give it back after a year or two anyway.

I doubt she has stayed in touch all this time just to make sure she got the coat back though though maybe...

I think you would be daft not to return it. It's for her daughter, it's a family heirloom, these things can be very meaningful - I wore my Granny's old silk dress practically every day for ages until it fell to bits. It was important to me. It made me feel I had a heritage, during my depressed teenage years.

Give it back, kindly, and ask for the Chinese dress for your DD at the same time - she can hardly refuse.

Thanks for al of you with the funny replies on what to do with the coat, PMSL, & I needed that today :)

& yes, it is Fake....shudders at the thought of those lambs :( though I would NEVER buy or wear new fur, that said I generally don't have an issue with vintage stuff, lets face it, its been dead longer than I've been alive....but still don't like the idea of that

& right now I can't afford another 1, though thats not really the issue, as I have other coats, more that it IS my favorite, she knows that & more so still the way its been done, a few short rather blunt & demanding notes in e-mail, no mention of it been of sentimental value, (I know my friend not to be the sentimental type at all) just DD wants it, so I'll be round to pick it up.......not even the decency of a phone call :(

theyoungvisiter Wed 08-Sep-10 12:40:10

Well I can see this both ways.

In the first place it's perfectly possible that your recollection of the conversation and your friend's recollection are quite different.

You clearly took the coat as a gift (I'm sure in good faith) but it's perfectly possible that she intended it as a loan all along and always considered it a family heirloom that would return to her family eventually - certainly the emphasis on giving it back rather than passing it on yourself does imply this.

You are both relying on your memories of a conversation 15 years ago and I think you have to accept that although you are sure she presented it as a gift, she may be equally convinced that it was given as a loan.

Since none of us were there at the original conversation and have no idea what was actually said, I think all we can say is that it's sad that she feels this way, but at the end of the day the coat is clearly valuable to her and she regards it as a family heirloom - you've had 16 years of use out of it which is at least better than her packing it away in a loft for 16 years on the off-chance of having a family some day.

More importantly, you are ill and have more important things to concentrate on. Hand over the coat, draw a line, and then if you possibly can, try to put this out of your mind and move on.
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WhereYouLeftIt

& yes, thanks, you are right about memories of the conversation being blurred between us, & was considering that, but my friend (probably ex now :() is very much a clean freak & not a hoarder at all, she often amazes me by how cut & dry she is on stuff like that, & always has been that way (unlike me) I do definitely remember she intended to get rid of it regardless & though she preffered it to go to a good home, had said if me, or another friend didn't want it, then it was going to a junk shop as she'd never wear it.....

I'm not sure she ever knew the Aunt it came from, though I can appreciate the value of family connection, nothing in her e-mail suggests thats what its about, & it would be very unlike her to be sentimental like that anyway

oh well, I've replied that I am very upset by all this, & understood it to be a gift, not a loan, & her attitude tells me she doesn't value my friendship at all...........though I suppose, living in another city, & general life getting in the way, my being ill, her being busy & tired etc, we don't often see each other or speak that much anyway, usually these days its just occasional texts saying hope your having a pleasant day, thinking of you, what you up to etc etc, & my often e-mailing her photos

I've even questioned if the e-mail is actually from her, & maybe her DD, though its her e-mail account, & she did thank me for the photos as a PS

now its just wait & see, but friendship soured whatever the outcome now, but I suppose theres not much to miss, though she's always good at remembering DDs birthday etc, :(

that is disgusting. what a horrific thing to do to an unborn lamb.

the coat is vile and should be burnt.

If its a fake, it probebly shouldnt be worn anyway because its positivly advertising the killin gof unborn lambs for clothes.

regardless of foul coat, if you can be sure she said if you ever dont want it/wear it then give it back then you are entitled to keep said coat as you are still using it.

Tell her you'll swap it for the pink silk Chinese dress... then she may see she is being silly.

I think if I was i this situation and made a fuss and ended up keeping the coat, I would have a bad feeling every time I wore it.

So in your position OP, I guess I'd email back:

"Coat will be on doorstep. I thought you had given it to me and have spent quite a lot of money maintaining it. As it would no longer exist without my maintenance I would appreciate a contribution from you. Hope your DD enjoys it and doesn't mind being called Tony Hancock by all and sundry"

I agree with SaintlyMrsTurnip and Fanjo - it was a 'qualified' gift, and whatever the exact wording at the time, she clearly had the idea that a return to her posession was possible.

Though you may be sad, though you may be feeling a bit miffed, you should do your best to return it with good grace - inless of course you value a coat more than a friendship, and prefer to be an aquisitive person rather than a generous one. In which case argue, keep it, lose the friendship between you and her, and between your DDs.

Actaully I find the whole atmosphere of this thread a bit depressing, with the level of contempt and aggression levelled at your friend. You have had the use of a coat you love but didn't pay for for many years, yet you use nasty expressions like 'Indian giving' (I've never heard that - where do you come from?) about it.

I also think you have to watch the clean, uncluttered types. They will often as not offload their clutter onto you as though you were a living attic, because they don't want it hanging around in their nice tidy house, but one day yes they will want to restore the stuff to its rightful place and you will have to hand it over.

Your friend is being vu. HOWEVER she did say a loan, she's asked for it back, you have to return it.

Don't send a huffy email about broken friendships etc, you will just look foolish and give her ammunition as to what a drama queen you are making all this fuss over an old coat. Simply leave it in a bag on the doorstep and then see if and when she contacts you again. If she does and you are still fuming then simply ignore all future contact from her until it dies away

OP - feel your pain. Someone nicked my grandma's WWF fake ocelot '50s coat off me years ago at university and I still seethe occasionally about it (I do get out sometimes too - in between seething).

I think the friendship is dead in the water and from your other posts you already know that. However, I would not want to give someone so petty (your friend) any reason to talk badly of me.

So I think I would give it back. She did give it to you - on the condition if you ever wanted rid of it she would have it back. But you don't want rid of it.

However, I would say "As we're doing a swap for things we've 'lent' each other over the years please could I have back x and x' and put in a request for items you have given over the years (you mentioned a silk print chinese dress for your DD) - and be light-hearted about it (try and rise above her mardy emails). I'd like to see her come up with what you've previously 'lent' her.

And then if you don't personally want the returned items e-bay them and get yourself along to either Camden market (plenty of fake persian lamb coats loitering there) or preloved.com and get yourself a new-old coat (I just found a very similar coat to the one I'm mourning above so you never know....)

ps. I know I'm being PC gorn mad but I'm not too keen on the phrase Indian giving...like welching it's a phrase that has derogatory origins to a particular group of people, attributing mean/untrustworthy traits so I tend to avoid it - although I recognise the origins of these phrases are perhaps obscure so people using them don't mean them that way.

eeek rockin @ your email. I'm sure she just had a different recollection than you. Is it really worth losing a friend over? If she says 'keep the bloody coat' will you wear it again?

I was thinking about this as I ate my lunch

I think the key is for me; what defines a gift?

What defines a gift, IMO, is the intent/feeling of the giver. If the giver doesn't hand something over freely without strings then it doesn't matter what the receiver thinks is happening, it's not a gift.

Legally perhaps yes you could make a case for saying the coat is now yours, that you've maintained it, that she should have set out the terms and conditions at the time, etc etc.

Morally if the person handing over the coat doesn't feel that something is a gift, it's not. If you keep the coat now you are not keeping a gift, you are witholding something that the original owner now wants back.

Yes your friend is annoying. Yes she should have been more sensitive. Yes she's been rude about getting the coat back.

But if she says it wasn't a gift, it wasn't a gift. The person on the receiving end is not the person who gets to decide.

That's my feeling. And that's why in your shoes I would hand it over. While feeling really fucked off .