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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that the catholic church are bloody immoral and need to be made answerable to the shit they seem to get away with?

606 replies

cupcakesandbunting · 24/08/2010 13:35

I am referring to this; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11061296

and yes, I am totally aware that the police and government are to blame too but we expect governments and to an extent police, to be corrupt.

I am saying this as a RC too. I am fucking shocked at the amount of revolting crap that the church seem to get away with. Covering up paedophiles/abusers, bombers and who knows what else.

Why are they never made accountable?

OP posts:
HouseOfBamboo · 31/08/2010 19:10

Seeker - yes it does seem reasonable to extrapolate the forces which have shaped human society as coming from the biological 'economics' of surety of paternity and investment in bringing up offspring.

The ethics of this and its context in a modern society is a huge subject, obviously.

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 19:10

PrincessFiorimonde, I'm a girl you know, you may be aware of that already but just thought I should mention it to make absolutely sure before the relationship gets serious Grin

HouseOfBamboo · 31/08/2010 19:15

Freddo - I think it's a fairly common practice in large litters for the mother to leave the weakest/smallest babies to die if food is short. Take from that what you will.

I'm fairly sure there are some examples of animals controlling their own abortions if they find themselves in unfavourable circumstances for rearing offspring, but I'd have to spend time researching that one.

I'm not drawing comparisons with human behaviour here btw, just getting back to you about your point that animals don't do abortion or contraception.

PrincessFiorimonde · 31/08/2010 19:23

Freddo, yes I know that.

Seeker and HouseofBamboo - good points.

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 19:29

What I'm saying though is that animals avoid incest because sexual activity for them generally results in offspring and with incestuous relationships those offspring are more likely to have deformities. This is not applicable to humans who think it is OK to use contraception/ have an abortion and have sex for pleasure's sake alone.

In stating that animals often leave their weakest babies to die I think you are showing that morals based on biological/ natural laws are flawed (unless you think it's OK to leave your weakest child to die which I doubt!)

Really must disconnect myself from the PC now or I think I might become permanently attached Smile

seeker · 31/08/2010 19:30

6n a lighter note - my lovely, 35 year old father of two neighbour asked me whether our new guines pigs were boys or girls or one of each. "Both boys" I said "I'm not thinking of setting up a guinea pig farm" "Really?" he said "Would that happen, even if they were brother and sister?"

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 19:31

Oh good idea PrincessFiorimonde, let's go mushroom gathering... I think it's going to rain as well Wink

HouseOfBamboo · 31/08/2010 19:34

Freddo - but incest avoidance absolutely is applicable to humans, because that is how we have evolved too. Contraception and medical abortions are very recent human inventions, so just don't figure as far as hardwired behaviour goes.

seeker · 31/08/2010 19:37

Is there any evidence that animals avoid incest?

HouseOfBamboo · 31/08/2010 19:38

Oh and to set your mind at rest, I don't draw my morals from the 'law of the jungle' Wink

HouseOfBamboo · 31/08/2010 19:41

Seeker - yes I think there is - here's just one study from a quick google:

Science Daily

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 19:47

FBM Shock

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 19:49

Were you not on the mumsnet names preconceptions thread DP???

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 19:51

I most certainly was

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 19:53

Why Shock then??? Anyway, gotta go for now!

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 20:06

Didn't see your posts on that thread, but listen, wanting to go mushroom picking in the rain with another woman is a harmless fantasy.....my girl crush has been hanging out on another thread (hide the feminist thread) < swoon > .don't tell anyone.

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 20:33

Daftpunk, I will have you know, the only person I would ever go mushroom hunting with in real life is Mr. BaggyMac.

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 21:00

Glad to hear it.

He sounds like something you'd get in Mcdonalds btw

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 21:01

Is that where you met?

Heracles · 01/09/2010 00:03

Freddo, you've got it back to front. Nothing is naturally right or wrong, morally; it's a man-made concept. Be it infanticide (Incas, Spartans, Chinese, Babylonia, Carthage, Russia), incest (Greco-Roman era Egyptians), canniballism (Africa, Melanesia), torture (you name it), slavery (again, take your pick) and so on and so on, all have been seen as perfectly reasonable and rational by societies that were at least as "successful" as our own, often carrying out these acts we regard as reprehensible in the service of their god, but not always, not always.

Morality isn't set in stone and there is no line to draw that can be said to apply to all people or for all people; it's a person's right and responsibility to figure out their own reaction to the mores and graces of the world as they see it. There was a shit load of civilisation before that Jewish hippy got nailed to a tree and it ill behoves the modern world in its arrogance to conveniently forget that all this has come before and it's no more guaranteed to be here in another 2000 years than the 'eternal empire' of Rome.

"Natural", "instinctive" morality is a myth.

mathanxiety · 01/09/2010 04:58

What about Justice, and Law? Why bother to make up laws that express a concept of justice or rights, and what are the underlying principles of what we have now by way of jurisprudence, and how did we arrive at them? If it's up to the individual alone to figure out their own reaction to the mores and graces of the world as they see it, what is the role of law, and where does out concept of justice come from? Or any other concepts that have a global appeal, like equality?

Western society has long grappled with the question of whether there is any such thing as natural or instinctive morality. It's good to see that someone can now definitively say that it's a myth, dispose of the nonsense in two short paragraphs and one short sentence no less. Someone should now inform Socrates and hundreds of subsequent great philosophers that they were wasting their time on the theory of natural law, and should probably have taken up some useful occupation like goat-herding instead.

Essentially the question posed by all those great minds was 'what is just by nature, and what is just by convention?' Many thousands of years later, it's now at last settled. Very basically, according to the theory of natural law, if you have the faculty of reason, you can discern right and wrong, good and evil, just and unjust. It forms the foundation of western jurisprudence.

Here's an introduction to Natural Law and a discussion of some of its inherent problems.

seeker · 01/09/2010 06:47

The think is, I thing that if you are not hampered by an artificial morality thought up by Church Fathers, it is obvious what the path that 'does not harm" is. The sex outside marriage thing is a useful example here. It's not sex outsie marriage that causes the harm, it is sex with the wrong person or at the wrong time or in the wrong place.

FreddoBaggyMac · 01/09/2010 07:58

I can see what you are saying Heracles, but I disagree completely. Anyway, am having a mumsnet free day today (this is a quick lapse) - may continue this later or I'm sure we'll get onto it somewhere else one day!

Heracles · 01/09/2010 09:12

MATH: "What about Justice, and Law?"

What about it? As I say, all those things we now find reprehensible were enshrined in law in societies no less complex and intelligent as ours.

"If it's up to the individual alone to figure out their own reaction to the mores and graces of the world as they see it, what is the role of law, and where does out concept of justice come from?"

Law is the imposition of agreed (between who depends on the dominant power at the time) rules; it has absolutely no connection with any concept of inarguable, instinctive moral right or wrong. After all, abortion's legal in this country, but Freddo disagrees. That's her take on the mores and practice of modern-day Great Britain. Yes?

Or are you saying because something is the law it's, in and of itself, morally correct? That is, with the greatest (ahem) respect, bullshit.

"Someone should now inform Socrates and hundreds of subsequent great philosophers that they were wasting their time on the theory of natural law, and should probably have taken up some useful occupation like goat-herding instead."

Socrates was against democracy so, y'know, the man wasn't infallible. Us rationalists are able to process things like that, y'see. Of course, it's almost imposssible to know what Socrates really thought about anything as virtually everything we know about him is filtered through Plato.

The greatest argument against the concept is that, throughout history and across the globe, those who have espoused natural law have, when driven to define it, come up with wildly different concepts as being inimical to mankind! It's a paradox that writes itself: classic lulz right there.

I know yer catholics have been welded to the idea of natural law since Tommy Aquinas dipped his wick but there is no useable, verifyable evidence that it's any more than just an opinion (in fact, as noted above, it appears to entirely depend on geography and chronology). Of course, even he surmised that the cardinal virtues could only be achieved by applying reason to nature, althoughj this, sadly, has been taken by some (extreme libertarians in the main) as some kind of proof that his approach meant god could be removed from his equation (including Rothbard himself) which is fairly clearly not the case.

FREDDO: "I can see what you are saying Heracles, but I disagree completely"

Which bits, Freddo? Do you disagree that these acts you declare as "against nature" have been seen as perfectly normal in different places and at different times through our long, long history?

Heracles · 01/09/2010 09:14

Damn, can't edit. I should have removed the sarcastic bit in the reply about Socrates; it was uncalled for and I apologise.