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Original poster

to think that the catholic church are bloody immoral and need to be made answerable to the shit they seem to get away with?

606 replies

cupcakesandbunting · 24/08/2010 13:35

I am referring to this; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11061296

and yes, I am totally aware that the police and government are to blame too but we expect governments and to an extent police, to be corrupt.

I am saying this as a RC too. I am fucking shocked at the amount of revolting crap that the church seem to get away with. Covering up paedophiles/abusers, bombers and who knows what else.

Why are they never made accountable?

OP posts:
HouseOfBamboo · 31/08/2010 10:42

DP - and are there exactly the right amount of places for all the Catholics in the area who want to attend?

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 10:51

It does happen though, between brothers and sisters and other relatives. So why is it considered to be wrong when it does? Does going against our natural instincts make something wrong? If so, where do those natural instincts come from?

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 10:51

No, our school is always oversubscribed.
It's really hard to get in, and all the scandals surrounding the catholic church has not made a blind bit of difference to that situation.

Catholic schools are very popular.

seeker · 31/08/2010 10:54

But I know what goes on in the school my children attend. ANd I repeat - the the point of screaming - if 51% or assemblies are ^not6 "broadly Christian in nature" the scchool is not fulfilling its statutoty requirements. Why should I rely on a school breaking the law so that my child is not put in a position where he either misses out on a significant part of the school commuity life OR pray?

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 10:55

HouseofBamboo, 'biological' reasons would imply a natural law. Surely it is going against such a natural law to abort your own children, so why is it not OK to go against it in terms of incest?
Also, do you think those who commit incest just do not have that natural instinct? Would you recommend people like that have some kind of treatment to correct themselves?

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 10:57

Infact it's getting harder to get in, as all the catholic private school parents who have pulled out due to economic situation now want to get back in....

gorionine · 31/08/2010 10:58

I am not relying on my DCs school to break the law and as matter of fact I do not think they atre breaking the law as the values I was refering too are to my knowledge broadly Christian in nature, , not only Christian but Christian non the less.

HouseOfBamboo · 31/08/2010 11:00

DP - so if the local Catholic school is turning away Catholics, where do they go?

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 11:05

They go to the local non-faith schools.

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 11:08

My ds is transferring to secondary school next yr..(he's going into yr 6 on thursday) I want him to go to the London Oratory (catholic boys school) I don't know what I'll do if he doesn't get in, worrying already.

seeker · 31/08/2010 11:15

Ok - I really feel that I am a stuck record now. IF a state school is NOT running at least 51% of its assemblies as "broadly Christian" which means involving the Christian God, then it is not fulfilling its statutory duty and is therefore breaking the law. My ds's school does NOT break the law and so he is obliges either to miss out on an imprtant part of school life or pray.

If your school does not do this, you are lucky - but it should be doing it, and OFSTED will not be impressed when they come to call.

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 11:18

Can I have some attention on my points on atheist morality [feeling left out emoticon]. I should perhaps start a new thread, but do feel it's relevant here given that the thread began by criticising the morality of catholics.

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 11:18

Ofsted are only there once every 5 yrs...(roughly)

And 'broadly christian in nature' gives you a lot to play with....

< gotta go >

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 11:21

Will just re-iterate. I see incest as wrong because:

  1. It causes deformities/ other problems in offspring.
  1. It is against the teaching of my faith.

So why do you see incest as being wrong if:

  1. Abortion/ contraception are OK so it will not result in children.
  1. You do not follow the teachings of any religion.

?????

HouseOfBamboo · 31/08/2010 11:26

"'Biological' reasons would imply a natural law. Surely it is going against such a natural law to abort your own children, so why is it not OK to go against it in terms of incest?
Also, do you think those who commit incest just do not have that natural instinct? Would you recommend people like that have some kind of treatment to correct themselves?"

Re 'natural law' - I don't think a law as such exists, it's a numbers game with regard to evolution. Very broadly and crudely speaking, certain behaviours lead to an increased likelihood of producing viable offspring who will in turn reproduce and pass on the genes for that behaviour. It's likely that incest as an evolutionary 'strategy', wasn't a terribly successful one, so we have inherited a general predisposition to avoid it.

This doesn't mean that the mechanism for avoiding incest is always perfect, just as our genes are 'fallible' in all sorts of ways. There are also social factors which may affect incest avoidance, such as being raised separately or somesuch.

Do I think people should receive 'treatment' for incest? Generally the answer is no, as I don't think it would be 'treatable' and I'm not sure it would be appropriate to try. If abuse is involved then that should be treated as any other case of sexual abuse. However if an incestuous couple were happy who am I to say they shouldn't be happy together? Whether it is a good idea for them to have children is another issue, and generally, IF it were any of my business, I would say that it would not be a good idea for genetic reasons.

noddyholder · 31/08/2010 11:35

Can I just say that i know several at london oratory and parents and kids are not catholic never have been or will be!Good school though but there are other entry criteria £££££££££

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 11:36

But if morality is based on principles of survival of the species - does that not make abortion the ultimate wrong?

Your answer is very honest houseofbamboo, I very much appreciate that. You are certainly not at all hypocritical in what you say. Would other atheists be happy to admit that incest is OK so long as the couple use contraception or abort any children?

Is the reason incest has not been legalised purely down to the fact that the church still has an influence on the laws of the land?

seeker · 31/08/2010 11:41

"I am all in favour of teaching RE as a subject - knowing about Christianity and other religions is an important part of beig a civilized and educated person. And for a Britiah person, Christianity is an important part of your cultural ahd historical background, and you need to know about it.

What I object to expecting children to actually "pray". And the fact that the daily assemblies in state schools have to be broadly Christian in nature" So if you want to miss the religious bit, you have to miss the assembly. How is that not outrageous to ANY resonable person of any faith or none?"

Please can someone answer my question?

gorionine · 31/08/2010 11:45

Personally I do not think it is outragious, It gives me a choice, take part or not to take part. |We chose to not let the Dcs take part. I personnally do not think they are missing on anything and so far none of them as asked "please mum let us take part" so I assume they dio not feel left out either.

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 11:46

I can't really answer your question Seeker as I don't think a few minutes of prayer will do your children any harm, or even turn them catholic! Surely it is just giving them an experience which they can decide for themselves whether they enjoy or not? Experiencing saying a prayer is a different thing to learning about religion.

gorionine · 31/08/2010 11:52

Freddo, it is not about the risk of turning my children Catholic, when they are old enough they will choose what works for them, as I did. It is about not confusing them. I teach my children that God did not have a son and it would really not help for them to pray to the son of God that God (in our faith) did not have.

seeker · 31/08/2010 11:53

How about your child expeiencing what it's like NOT to be in a Christian environment so that he can make an informed decision, FBM?

seeker · 31/08/2010 11:53

"I find it hard to get too worked up about sexual morality - anything which takes place between truly consenting adults in private is OK by me. Incest, however, seems to me likely to involve unequal power relationships and cooercion - which is compeletly unacceptable.

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 11:56

But surely that is your opinion that you are teaching them gorionine, they are going to get different opinions thrown at them about everything from everywhere... I'd saying it was educating rather than confusing.

I will teach my children that abortion is wrong and it is wrong to have sex outside of marriage. Just about every aspect of society will teach them otherwise. It is just something i have to accept and hope they will make the right decisions for themselves.

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 12:01

seeker, they experience a non-Christian environment whenever they are not at home, even to some degree at their catholic school! We live in an atheist society...

Would an incestuous relationship not involving unequal power relationships and cooercian, between two consenting adults, be OK? I suppose you are saying that the strong should protect the weak, but where does the morality fro that come from? Surely if you are relying on 'survival of the fitest' principles the strong should be killing the weak off?