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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that the catholic church are bloody immoral and need to be made answerable to the shit they seem to get away with?

606 replies

cupcakesandbunting · 24/08/2010 13:35

I am referring to this; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11061296

and yes, I am totally aware that the police and government are to blame too but we expect governments and to an extent police, to be corrupt.

I am saying this as a RC too. I am fucking shocked at the amount of revolting crap that the church seem to get away with. Covering up paedophiles/abusers, bombers and who knows what else.

Why are they never made accountable?

OP posts:
daftpunk · 30/08/2010 21:02

Lol at communist china....Grin

Not sure what was said in the deleted post, but looking at the posters name can only imagine it was upto her usual hate filled standard.
And NH, are you on this thread to join in the debate,
or are you here purely to enjoy the attacks on me?

I've asked you so many times before, can you please leave me alone.

noddyholder · 30/08/2010 21:06

Hmm go away you silly woman

daftpunk · 30/08/2010 21:09

Other posters have noticed how much you stalk me, it's getting embarrassing. In the name of god can you please stop.

noddyholder · 30/08/2010 21:10

stalk you fuck off you are deluded now stop the smoking god doesn't allow it

Snobear4000 · 30/08/2010 21:18

Freddo...

Indeed what happened in your parish is exactly what we all wish for. I am very pleased to hear it and hope that more paedos like him are prosecuted. Bravo! Credit where credit is due and all that.

So we have one more case where there was not a conspiracy to cover up a crime and protect the abuser. I imagine there will be a lot more and I think we will all welcome the change. I wonder if there is any chance that all the bishops, priests and the Pope will ever be held accountable for the decades of illegal protection they have given their paedophile colleagues. Probably not, as the whole structure of the church would collapse. We can but dream...

claig · 30/08/2010 21:19

HouseofBamboo, these are the progressives

www.progressonline.org.uk/

the socialists. You probably haven't been listening closely to their latest propaganda initiatives. They use the term progressive at every turn. However, it is confusing because the LibDems and Tories don't want to be outflanked and be called regressives, so they also call themselves progressive. But there is no doubt who the real progressives are.

noddyholder · 30/08/2010 21:22

I came to this thread as I was brought up in ireland and have seen some of the horror of what the catholic church has done first hand.It also has good people within it but it is often used as a cover for evil and that is always wrong.I am off now though as DP always makes this about her and has resorted to discussing me and my dislike of her offboard which is strange to say the least.(hides thread)

FreddoBaggyMac · 30/08/2010 21:30

Snobear - completely agree that none of us want conspiracies to cover up crimes, and as I said that is what the church (and Pope) is aiming for. I think it might be a bit of an exaggeration to say that ALL of the bishops, Priests and Pope are involved in the cover up of paedophilia, but of course you are entitled to your own(informed?) opinion.

daftpunk · 30/08/2010 21:31

There's nothing wrong with you turning up on the same threads i'm on if you turn up to discuss what the thread is about, but that doesn't happen, you always make some pathetic snide comment about me, you've just told SB how much you like her because she attacks me fgs.

mathanxiety · 30/08/2010 22:01
Snobear4000 · 30/08/2010 22:04

Snobear4000 is a he, BTW. Innocent error and often made on MN. Just for the record.

daftpunk · 30/08/2010 22:36

Thanks for the info mathx, tbh it doesn't matter, will be avoiding like the plague.

Snobear4000 · 30/08/2010 23:10

Why did mumsnet delete my Daft Cunt post?

claig · 30/08/2010 23:33

because it thought you were talking about yourself

PrincessFiorimonde · 31/08/2010 00:18

For what it's worth - and even though none of you have ever heard of me before - this is my view on this thread (to take some examples):

Freddo, on this thread (and on others), is a very polite person who puts her points across in a reasoned fashion (even though I do not agree with her re: contraception and abortion).

Mathanxiety also makes her case in a very reasonable way. Earlier on this thread, I agreed with some of the points she made.

Seeker has made very good points. I agree with many of them. Though I think that she is wasting her breath here.

Noddyholder too has made excellent points. But I think that she too is wasting her breath, and should make her excellent points elsewhere where she might be better appreciated.

Daftpunk might be just here to wind up other people, even though on other threads I have defended her right to speak her views. But maybe she should just go away and argue with me on the fantasy football thread instead.

Heracles · 31/08/2010 02:29

MATH: "Why refer so sneeringly to the cornerstone of someone's faith (the faith of millions actually, both Jews (Torah) and Christians) as 'that book of yours'?"

Because it's a nasty, misogynist, xenophobic, dogmatic, lying piece of shit. To be honest.

I'm not sneering, I'm merely stating facts. It's your book, t'ain't mine; what about it makes it more worthy of my respect than the latest Dan Brown? The bits where whole cities are wiped out? The bit where Paul is telling early Christians that women should shut the hell up? Or the bonkers bit at the end written by a man who'd slipped a wee bit too much mescaline in his night time ovaltine?

I take it you're fully aware of the history of the Bible? Its revisions, its ommissions, its editing? It's a fascinating story as long as you're not scared of learning the hand of man did more than just scribble out what the holy voices in their heads were saying.....

"For those of you who have alleged that the Catholic Church is all about power and influence down through history, no doubt you are aware that that is the reason for continued discrimination against Catholics and continued suspicion of Catholicism in many protestant dominated countries even today? From Al Smith to JFK to Tony Blair, the old charge against the Catholic Church has been trotted out and used against Catholics aspiring to high political office. (And no, my mentioning of them does not imply any support for them as political candidates or admiration for their policies or the way some of them conducted their personal lives) It's a holdover from hundreds of years ago, probably the days of the Spanish Armada. Time to move on? It's not the 1500s any more."

No it's not the 1500s; are you seriously saying the holy mother church in Rome isn't heavily involved in power-brokery? And are you saying it with a straight face?

Discrimination's not right in any sphere of life; of course, the Catholic Church evangelises an extremely discriminatory message, but let's just gloss over that, right?

FREDDO: "Well I would in one sense agree, everyone with faith experiences doubts sometimes and being a member of the church does help bolster my beliefs sometimes (although to me it's not 'scary'!). The reason it does that is because I see so many good people and intelligent people involved in it, both today when I go to Mass and through history (saints from a thousand years ago)."

You are aware the majority of saints are fictional, either in actualite or in the deeds attributed to them, right?

"I think it's much more natural to act and celebrate as a member of group than alone, it's just human nature."

Any being that demands worship isn't worthy of being worshipped.

"Also, No, it is not all there in the Bible. That's a big mistake people make about Catholicism, we go on the bible and Church teaching (which is mostly contained in the Catechism). Church teaching has been developed by many great minds over the last two thousand years and it mainly applies and develops scripture with respect to the world we live in now. Personally, I find it a very good moral guide, I do not act on it like an unthinking sheep but I try to think about what it says properly, and usually find I agree!"

Well that's just my point (and believe me, I've been to more masses, retreats, seminaries, abbeys and convents than you would believe); everything that's not in the Bible is just made up stuff, developed from the mind of man with no holy input at all. A bit presumptious, no? To quote Bill Hicks: "I think what god meant to say....."

It's a boy's club and great fun if you're a priest (especially if you play golf and like a drink), but I am confident enough in my ability to work out what's right and wrong myself without having to have it decided for me by eldery men in Italy, ta.

mathanxiety · 31/08/2010 03:42

They deleted it because I reported it, Snobear.

mathanxiety · 31/08/2010 03:59

'Because it's a nasty, misogynist, xenophobic, dogmatic, lying piece of shit. To be honest.'

To be as rude and as crude as you can possibly be, to be even more honest, though -- right?

But again, why do you think you have some sort of moral duty to refer to the Bible this way? Why so very angry? Why so utterly, rabidly angry?

Yes, I am aware of the history of the writing and editing and compilation of the Bible, and no, I do not consider the latest worldwide phenomenal success from the desk of Dan Brown to be on a par with the Bible. And Bill Hicks -- this is your frame of reference then?

"everything that's not in the Bible is just made up stuff, developed from the mind of man with no holy input at all.' So you have your opinions obviously. And they are not mine. Everything you say (without offering any argument, but just the bald statements) is developed by the mind of Heracles well actually it's not all that original; most is repetition of a lot of other uber-hostile rants I have seen here before here on MN, or encountered in the course of my studies and therefore I will look elsewhere for words of wisdom.

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 07:41

Heracles. A few people I admire from the history of the catholic church who are not 'fictional':
Mother Teresa
Fr Maximilian Kolbe
St. Francis of Assissi
Cardinal Newman
St Therese of Liseux
Margaret Clitherow
... I could list around 300 or so more but doubt that you're really that interested.

You are mistaken in saying that 'God demands worship'. We worship God to celebrate our belief in him, not to bolster God's confidence in himself Grin. Someone who worships God and behaves in a non-Christian way the rest of the time is not making God a happy chappy imo.

I don't know which areas of the Catechism you have problems with (perhaps all of them?) but I've never found that it contradicts the Bible. If you think you can personally do better in terms of setting yourself moral guidelines than 2,000 plus years worth of study, thought and prayer from great minds then that's great for you. Personally I find it makes more sense to take the Church as my starting point and work from there. Perhaps there are a few things I don't quite agree with, but not that many.

where do you get your morality from Heracles?Do you believe it comes instinctivly or do you set time aside to contemplate it?

daftpunk · 31/08/2010 07:52

PF; your 'assessment' of me is wildly inaccurate. If you think "winding people up" is asking them to stop personally attacking me (and my parents) then think away, but you're completely off target. I have a right to speak out and ask for abusive posts, directed at me personally, to be deleted. being attacked in the way i have been on this thread is not something I should just put up with.

Y' know this thread is really interesting when people are talking about the real issue, and when not being interrupted by someones personal assessment of other posters.

I should hide the thread, I don't want to as I'm learning a lot from FBM, claig and mathx

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 08:03

Also Heracles I'm intrigued to know why you've "been to more masses, retreats, seminaries, abbeys and convents than you would believe." Erm, was it for demonstration purposes???

seeker · 31/08/2010 08:41

There is no virtue in a detailed anaysis of the Catholic icons you list, (although I do find it hard to let a reference to Mother Theresa pass without a raised eyebrow, considering recent analysis of the conditions in her homes for the dying) but I do want to point out that martyrdom is not the sole preserve of Catholics - or even Christians - or even religios people. Angnostics, atheists and humanists have all died for their beliefs, and to protect other people.

Heracles · 31/08/2010 08:45

MATH: I'm not angry, far from it, I find the idea of having to organise faith amusing and juvenile. It's a tired argument to accuse me of "ranting"; that's your own spin on my words. I'm typing with a smile and a raised eyebrow. Argue with what I say rather than using the defensive technique of attacking how (you have decided) I'm saying it. Believe me, there's no one on this thread calmer; I can guarantee that.

FREDDY: I'm not sure I ever said ou couldn't list 300 catholics to admire. In fact I'm not sure I've attacked any individual catholics (bar Mather Theresa: I couldn't bear that woman). Please don't misread my words to set up a straw man to attack, that'll get us nowhere. Smile

"You are mistaken in saying that 'God demands worship'."

Hmm: ??Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.?(Revelation 14:7)

"This people have I formed for myself; they shall show forth my praise." (Isiah 43)

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelations 13:8)

I mean , there's loads in there, but even if there weren't, I've always struggled with the need or desire. What's the point of worship? Guidance, yeah, discussing morality, perhaps, but worship? The man's omniscient, omnipresent and all-knowing; what's the point? Again, it's simply a well-established form of bolstering an idea that, at its root, holds little water; an attempt to shore up any doubts that rational thinking exposes. In other words, it's classic cult behaviour.

"I don't know which areas of the Catechism you have problems with (perhaps all of them?) but I've never found that it contradicts the Bible."

There are swathes of catechism that has borne fruit with absolutely no backing from the bible at all, you want me to start listing some?

"If you think you can personally do better in terms of setting yourself moral guidelines than 2,000 plus years worth of study, thought and prayer from great minds then that's great for you."

My frame of referenc spans further than a measly 2000 years and from a wider range of sources, occasionally contradictory, often flawed, but I'm always learning and rely on MYSELF to draw conclusions. I'm a grown up human being with the ability to think, observe and decide for myself.

"Personally I find it makes more sense to take the Church as my starting point and work from there."

Why? Why does it make sense to start, from ground zero, at a point that requires an unprovable leap of faith? That way of thinking is shown time and time again to lead to the greatest errors.

"where do you get your morality from Heracles?Do you believe it comes instinctivly or do you set time aside to contemplate it?"

Everyone should take the time to contantly reevaluate their position in the world and their reflection of it. Philosophy is one of man's greatest inventions.

FreddoBaggyMac · 31/08/2010 09:25

Seeker I just cannot agree that the people I've listed are not virtuous, Fr. Maximilian Kolbe would be the obvious one I think most people would find it extremely hard to be critical of...

Heracles, you said that the majority of the saints were fictional and I was merely trying to list some that aren't... how is that misreading your words to set up a straw man to attack?

All I can say about worship is that I don't do it to make God happy, I do it to celebrate what I believe in. I believe god wants us to worship him purely because it makes US happy to celebrate what we are, not because he needs the praise!

I agree regarding your point on philosophy, but I can say in all honesty that I find the moral teachings of the church to be sound in the vast, vast majority of areas. I too think for myself, but I usually find that what I end up deciding on is fairly much in line with what the church teaches.

Here's an example of how some of the more controversial church teachings tie together to make moral sense. The church disapproves of contraception, abortion and sex outseide of marriage. Society in general says these things are all OK. If you think abortion and contraception are OK, and that it's fine to have sex just for pleasure's sake, what makes incest wrong?

Natural law would make it wrong because of the increase in children born with deformities etc..., but if contraception and abortion are OK that really doesn't apply does it?

seeker · 31/08/2010 09:27

Actually, I do get angry when I feel my rights are being infringed by religious people. This happens all the time. For example, the views of religious people are always taken into consideration when legislation is considered - particularly that related to scientific or social policy.

And don't get me started - or carried on- about education. It is impossible to have a state education in this counrty without having at some stage to pray to the Christian God. And there is strong and growing pressure for Creationism to be taught in science lessons in schools as a valid alternative. This has already happened in some States in America. The Christian Right has a worryingly strong hold there - and the Atlantic is not that wide.