to think that the catholic church are bloody immoral and need to be made answerable to the shit they seem to get away with?

[cupcakesandbunting]

I am referring to this; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11061296

and yes, I am totally aware that the police and government are to blame too but we expect governments and to an extent police, to be corrupt.

I am saying this as a RC too. I am fucking shocked at the amount of revolting crap that the church seem to get away with. Covering up paedophiles/abusers, bombers and who knows what else.

Why are they never made accountable?

Re schools; You are within your parental rights to ask for your child to be removed from any form of christian worship. That is your right. Nothing is forced on you.

Seeker, I am not against there being an option of completely secular schooling. But what about the point that if your children get a bit of a religious education at school or learn to say an odd prayer it means they have at least experienced it, so it makes them able to form a more informed opinion of what they want for themselves?

I certainly don't agree with teaching creationism in schools.

I know. So my child has to be singled out and not take part in the full life of the school because religious people's wishes are more important than mine. Religious people have 18 hours in 24 to practice their religion. Why do they have to impose it on others in the remaining 6?

Not to mention the utterly ridiculous situation which exists in some schools whereby MOST of the children are from non-Christian backgrounds, but it's still the law that they have to attend Christian worship. (Or is that all good because they are being given a good 'opportunity' to become Christians if they want to as well?)

oops sorry not the law that they have to attend, the law that it still has to happen while they sit outside in the corridor or something

I agree with you Seeker.

Keep faith schools where the children can have morning worship and their faith is continuing to flow through everyday life. We see it as a triangle; home, church & school, all joining together to make a symbol.

All other schools should just forget it...maybe?...not sure

But what about my point that it gives them the chance to experience it so they can make their own informed decisions?????

I am all in favour of teaching RE as a subject - knowing about Christianity and other religions is an important part of beig a civilized and educated person. And for a Britiah person, Christianity is an important part of your cultural ahd historical background, and you need to know about it.

What I object to expecting children to actually "pray". And the fact that the daily assemblies in state schools have to be broadly Christian in nature" So if you want to miss the religious bit, you have to miss the assembly. How is that not outrageous to ANY resonable person of any faith or none?

You have the right to remove your child from christian worship...I've just said that. The law does not force you to do anything...in this respect anyway.

Daftpunk, I said that you 'might' be on a wind-up; I didn't say that you definitely 'were'. And if you aren't on a wind-up, then I apologise and - yet again - defend your right to say whatever you believe. I'm sorry if there have been personal attacks on you (and on your parents - I haven't seen those myself). Please do not have a dig at me; I am not having a go at you.

Freddo, once again, I do not agree with you, but I like your calm and reasonable method of debate. I don't agree that everyone on your list is a delightful person. For example, I have every respect for Kolbe, but very little for Therese of Lisieux (prefer Teresa of Avila myself).

Heracles, you are perhaps a bit intemperate, but I agree with your basic premises. I'm not in agreement with any God message from any religion, though I don't see why we can't let the believers get on with it if that's what they want.

Freddo - does that apply to Jewish or Muslim schoolchildren as well?

I would have no objection to my children saying Jewish or muslim prayers alongside the catholic ones... would take up a lot of the day though

I don't think it does children any harm personally, you are maybe seeing too much into it, singing a few hymns is not going to turn children into religious fanatics & very few of them leave school wanting to live like Cliff Richard......chill out.

I think the Catholics who have taken part/coverd up have to be answerable yes but there are millions of Catholics who have absolutey nothing whatsoever to do with it so why make them answearable?

Where are you Seeker, my dcs do not pray in school or take part in what they call "church assembly" just because I requested them not to take part, it has never been an issue with the school. Have you asked? or is your school or religious denomination maybe?

Oops, sorry, took me so long to post (going off to make cups of tea and all) that I missed the debate moving on.

Christian assemblies - maybe we should just separate religion from education, full stop? (I believe this is the case in the USA.)

Freddo - surely incest is a different case from sex outside marriage? Social taboos against incest (in all sorts of societies) exist because of a) the possibility of genetic abnormalities, and b) the possibility of abuse.

If a state school is fulfilling its bare ninumum statutory requirements, in order to avoid Christian worship you would have to remove you child from 51% of all assemblies.

How about letting children from religous families see what it's like not to practice religion for 6 hours of the day so that they can make thier own informed decision?

In our school it is 1 church assembly a week so not 51%.

Then, if you are in England, your schoolis not fulfilling its statutory requirements. At least 51% of all assemblies have to be "broadly Christion in nature"

I think they probably are christian in nature as usually about friendship, hard work, kindness, respect... but these Christian values are universal, so not "religious" as such as opposed to church assembly were they sing hymns etc.

DP - I'm sure your argument would work in reverse too. Just as singing a few hymns may not make a person religious, then an absence of them from school assemblies should not affect the child's faith either if they are from a religious family and attend church.

And as for your 'triangle' model of faith schools, surely you can see that that would only work if there were exactly the right number of children from each faith (or non-faith) to 'match' the places at the locally available schools. Which isn't ever going to happen, is it? Hence the problem.

PrincessFiorimonde my list was not supposed to be one of people who I think everyone should admire. I was just resonding to Heracles' point that most of the saints in history I admire are fictional. I just wanted to give a sample of a few people who I personally find inspiring in my faith. You are of course entitled to your own preferences!

I do take issue with the criticisms of mother Teresa, she is still revered by Christians and non-Christians alike throughout India for the work she did. perhaps her homes for the dying were not akin to five star hotels, but I would have thought they were better than having to die in a rubbish bin, which is where she found some of the people she treated.

That Christopher Hitchens book about her is laughable imo. He has devoted his life to making money by trying to destroy people's faith, she devoted her life to helping the poor. It's a bit of a no-brainer which of them is the most admirable imo.

Also PrincessFiorimonde, re the incest issue (!) The genetic abnormalities arguement doesn't follow if contraception and abortion are OK. And it depends what you mean by abuse. If it's OK to abort children what makes abuse of children wrong other than it's socially unacceptable? Do atheists get their morality from what is socially acceptable?

HouseofBamboo;

It works in faith schools, & that's what I'm talking about. At my dc primary school every single child is catholic, you dont get in if your're not.

Re incest taboo - since it's pretty much universal wrt human society, I think it's fair to say that it has a biological rather than social or moral basis. Siblings who are raised together on the whole just don't want to have sexual relationships with each other. They don't have to be taught not to.

& Seeker, 'broadly religious in nature' means not mentioning religion at all in a lot of schools. My dd is teacher training and has sat in on quite a few assemblies at quite a few schools. God is rarely mentioned....trust me.