to think that the catholic church are bloody immoral and need to be made answerable to the shit they seem to get away with?

[cupcakesandbunting]

I am referring to this; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11061296

and yes, I am totally aware that the police and government are to blame too but we expect governments and to an extent police, to be corrupt.

I am saying this as a RC too. I am fucking shocked at the amount of revolting crap that the church seem to get away with. Covering up paedophiles/abusers, bombers and who knows what else.

Why are they never made accountable?

Ah terrorism as well as child abuse. Nice to see the church getting involved in all parts of society.

And the usual posters saying in effect "I am catholic and I don't like what they do, but I'm going to carry on supporting them because at the end of the day my religion matters more than a few abused or murdered kids"

DP as I have said before you pick and choose what parts of catholicism suit you depending on your own wants and needs don't push me to bring that up again.This is all attention seeking as you know what reaction you will get so you post when you are bored.You are racist homophobic and have even posted anti disabled comment here in the past so you are a bit late trying to deny it.You weren't supposed to post at all on these topics for 3 months but you couldn't resist it.Sad really you waste a lot of time hating when you should have your nose in your uni books as you are misinformed on a lot of things and make yourself look bad

I don't have gay friends as some sort of tokenism, I have them because I like them.

I don't know it all, I don't know half of it...and thank god. I'm only half way through my life (hopefully)..if I knew it all now what's left for me?...life should be a continual learning process....that's what it is for me.

Maybe you have life sewn up already...I think that's quite sad, I will be learning 'til the day I die.

So are you saying that you might review your beliefs, DP?

Chibi, but that's my point - no religion should be about blind faith. I have Catholic friends who don't believe all the rubbish about homosexuality that DP does. Being part of a religion doesn't mean that everything has to be taken at face value.

And of course life is a continuing learning process - I'm a teacher, would be pretty hard to do my job if I didn't believe that!

And my life isn't remotely empty because I don't have religion - it's happy and fulfilled and I'm able to have friends of all races and sexualities because no one is telling me what to believe about them.

Very liberating.

Does Catholicism have priveleged dominion over the spiritual then daftpunk?

I don't consider myself in the wilderness, and I don't consider myself to be a practicing Catholic either.

I do think it's oxymoronic to suggest that you are Catholic and NOT homophobic.

I don't know you. I haven't interacted with you on any other thread so know nothing about your other views. But on here I really haven't you seen get to grips with the issues - just make ill disguised assumptions.

Re: condoms - "The church isn't stupid they know they'd never see the light of the day" Why? How do they know this? Is it through all those rigorous studies the church funds into what actually DOES work to halt the spread of STDs?

Re: homosexuality "6yr olds don't need homosexual propaganda thrust upon them". You still haven't explained how a book containing an image of a same sex couple is propaganda rather than an accurate reflection of the world. Nor have you in any way attempted to explain why it would be A BAD THING in the first place. I understand that you wouldn't want your children to be gay, and that it goes against your belief - but then you are in to believing that children's books have the power to make children gay. Is that really what you are saying?

I don't dislike you for being Catholic. I am not attacking all Catholics.

I detest what you say, and your inability to actually answer questions is intensely frustrating.

(I believe that you have a gay best-friend about as much as I believe that MNHQ are going to start mandating the use of glittery tickers and hun.)

"I would never try & change you."

Wow, the BNP who knew they were such a tolerant bunch?

Anyway DP, you might not try and change me, but I bet you'd kick me out your country for being a bit forrin'

at Squiggly hun.

There is a different catholicism for dp though where you can have a mixed race husband but be racist and have a gay best friend but be homophobic and get off your head on drugs even though the catholic church forbids it!I think I'll join

But it isn't an accurate reflection of catholic life...why can't you understand that?

I do understand it. I also understand that you don't live in cultural isolation.

Though it possible isn't a bad idea.

LOL at the idea that all the Pope has to do is give the green light to condom use and all those hundreds of thousands of 'African men' will form an orderly queue to get their box of condoms.

Too funny. Do you think all 'African men' just sit around all day waiting for orders from some white man living in Rome?

The problems that have surfaced in AIDS prevention in Africa are deep-seated and will not be eliminated by a sudden volte face by the Catholic Church on the question of condoms, any more than the problems of AIDS prevention in any other parts of the world would be. Male privilege, in Africa and elsewhere, will not be eradicated except by a radical cultural change, maybe the one the Pope advocates.

The idea that the Catholic Church demands blind obedience, or 'dictates' anything to its followers is an old and specious claim used to justify exclusion of Catholics from political and legal office. It is pure bigotry. Those of you on this thread who condemn the Church need to do a little research into your own oh-so-unoriginal views. You might be surprised where a lot of them come from, and who you share them with. <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=www.urantiansojourn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/KKK.jpg&imgrefurl=www.urantiansojourn.com/2009/09/rare-t-bagger-spotted/&usg=__JBfjaMtOqvuERvMD2wfVAEIW7Js=&h=494&w=800&sz=327&hl=en&start=3&zoom=1&tbnid=nVJdVTc25mUQVM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=152&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkkk%2Banti%2Bcatholic%2Bcartoons%26tbnh%3D149%26tbnw%3D90%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26gbv%3D2%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D564%26tbs%3Disch:1,simg:CAISEgkKsghGvRv0WSG72Q5IHNr3JA0%2C342&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=315&vpy=213&dur=15481&hovh=176&hovw=286&tx=121&ty=96&ei=5x91TISuNdD-nAePkc3sBg&oei=1h91TLD_Coi5nAfowcD_BQ&esq=2&page=2&ved=1t:722,r:2,s:23&biw=1024&bih=564" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The figure on the ground represents the Catholic Church

What are your views on all other religions?

most of them have similar (if not alot worse) views on homosexuality.

Or is it just catholics you dislike.

No. I am open to finding more or less all organised religions to be objectionable.

And I don't dislike Catholics. Or Hindus. Or Muslims. Or any other religious group for that matter.

I do dislike the organisations behind the individuals. I do dislike the messages of hatred and judgement that they preach. I do find them absurdly contradictory to the idea of a merciful, benevolent, loving and tolerant God. I do think it is morally reprehensible to have such power in the world and consistently fail to use it for God.

Religion is not above any other form of belief. It is sacred to the holders of it yes, but not entitled to any greater respect than beliefs of any other kind.

I would have no objection to the actions of the Catholic church if they were as benign as, say, the actions of the Vegan Society. But they are not. So I do object. Not to the exclusion of other religions. But the OP, and thread, were about Catholicism.

And you still didn't answer either point.

mathanxiety, I see you've chosen your side. If we don't let your priests abuse children and promote bigotry and homophobia then we must be evil.

I think it's time Catholics starting wearing something distinctive as a badge so that decent people know not to invite you into our homes.

I have answered your points to the best of my ability. Maybe I'm just not very good at on-line debates, maybe I'm better in RL..?? just because I can't always explain myself perfectly, doesn't mean I'm trying to wind you up....I'm just not very good with words. You shouldn't always judge everything I do so negatively...

...also, maybe I just miss your posts, or have to switch my phone off, go out...100's of reasons why I might not get back to you...

I don't know who that question is directed at DP, but if it's me, then I actually dislike the idea of religion and would like to see a world where religion doesn't exist.

Having said that, I would never actively discriminate against religious people by saying they couldn't get married or adopt children - even though I'd prefer they didn't.

Mathanxiety, that's an interesting post.

And I've always thought that arguments along the lines of 'Why doesn't the Catholic Church advocate the use of condoms to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS?' are nonsense, because the RC Church's position is this: 'Don't have sex outside of marriage. If you don't have sex outside of marriage, you won't get HIV/AIDS. Therefore, condoms are not needed. End of story.' You may think this point of view is unrealistic, in many ways, but this is what the RC Church says. Consistently. And it's not the only religious organisation to do so. (One of the many reasons that I am no longer a member of this or any other religion.)

Heracles - apologies that I put you off your breakfast. And you're right that my 'heroes and villains in every group of humanity' comment was pretty glib. Sorry. (Though I am still rather about Bertrand Russell.)

I also should not have used the example of Mother Teresa, because I know that many people have argued that she and her cohorts just kept the poor in their place by not fighting for change.

Mathanxiety's examples of Romero and Kolbe were much better.

But I basically believe that all religions are oppressive. Along with all totalitarian political systems too (before anyone raises the hoary questions of Fascism or Stalinism).

'Women of the World, Unite! You Have Nothing to Lose but Your Illusions.'

Yes, I've chosen my side Onagar.

So you would like us to wear some distinctive clothing, or maybe some symbol would help? Which one do you fancy? This idea has been tried before, and it was actually very effective in separating people from each other.

Once again it is revealed that bigotry, ignorance and blind prejudice produce more heat than light.

mathanxiety/PF...

That's what I've been trying to say...just can't say it as well as you two.

Why not ask MNHQ if they want to campaign to make the Catholic Church accountable for this?

It would be quite cool if if MNHQ started a war on pedofiles, starting with the Pope.

I am not sure if I am serious, or in La La Land.

Mathanxiety, I knew you'd try the 'ohh I expect you must hate jews too!!!" line when I said about a badge, but I don't think you can get away with claiming that the holocaust was deserved in the way that arrests for child abuse are.

People who abuse children (or commit terrorist acts) or who break the laws on racism and homophobia are common criminals not martyrs. If you support them in their crimes than you are morally no better.

Apart from all the other reasons, I don't think that the Catholic church will change its mind on condoms, because they don't believe that condoms can prevent AIDS.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids

It would be interesting to know if any MN scientists think that there may be some truth in this claim.