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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that the catholic church are bloody immoral and need to be made answerable to the shit they seem to get away with?

606 replies

cupcakesandbunting · 24/08/2010 13:35

I am referring to this; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11061296

and yes, I am totally aware that the police and government are to blame too but we expect governments and to an extent police, to be corrupt.

I am saying this as a RC too. I am fucking shocked at the amount of revolting crap that the church seem to get away with. Covering up paedophiles/abusers, bombers and who knows what else.

Why are they never made accountable?

OP posts:
squigglywig · 25/08/2010 16:44

It's nothing to do with the timing of the response daftpunk, I completely understand (and at this time of day especially, anticipate) that people may have other things to besides MN.

My objection is to the content of the responses.

Can you just explain to me how pictures of same sex couples are propaganda? And what you think the consequences of it might be?

That's what I just don't get.

daftpunk · 25/08/2010 16:47

Even I know condoms will not stop Aids in Africa.....(as I pointed out at 9.30 this morning.)..

Look forward to the MN scientists putting me right again...

daftpunk · 25/08/2010 16:51

give me 5 minutes...will answer you

mathanxiety · 25/08/2010 17:07

"Mathanxiety, I knew you'd try the 'ohh I expect you must hate jews too!!!" line when I said about a badge, but I don't think you can get away with claiming that the holocaust was deserved in the way that arrests for child abuse are."

So, I said 'You must hate Jews too' ('!!!') somewhere? Reading between the lines, mindreading, and predicting the future are your special powers....

Face it, your post was just stupid, Onagar.

Here's a brief and balanced idea of the debate within the Catholic Church on condom use to prevent AIDS. Avert your eyes if you think anything from a site called catholic.org would hurt your brains.

claig · 25/08/2010 17:17

found some info from a religious site that quotes some scientific info which seems to tie in with what the church says.
www.dianedew.com/condom.htm

TheFallenMadonna · 25/08/2010 18:28

Onagar - we've sparred on many a religion thread and it's always been very civil. I am sad to see your post of 15:20.

giveitago · 25/08/2010 18:56

"Exactly, in reality men in Africa will continue to engage in homosexual behaviour and sleep with female prostitutes without protection....we need to purify people's minds...not slip a condom in their pocket."

Erm Daftpunk a condom will help in the first instance. Many people don't use condoms are they are told it's against their religion and are also told that it won't protect them.

mathanxiety · 25/08/2010 19:34

"As if some fellow out committing adultery is then going to use a condom because the pope says so,? quote from the last link I posted, by an Irish missionary priest.

I think that's a fair assessment of reality, and it paraphrases what DP said.

Those who are so concerned about doing things that are 'against their religion' are also told not to commit adultery in the first place Hmm Does this concern them?

MoralDefective · 25/08/2010 19:43

My apologies to Heracles,was up too late and hadn't read the thread properly...BlushCan't abide any sort of religiosity,and the catholic church have hidden such heinous crimes committed by their priests and then blamed the victims.

Spacehopper5 · 25/08/2010 20:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

TheFallenMadonna · 25/08/2010 20:17

I agree with you about faith schools spacehopper. I am also a secularist.

TheFallenMadonna · 25/08/2010 20:18

I do wonder what the general mood of the nation is regarding them though. MN is always very anti, but none of the major parties have addressed the issue to my knowledge. Presumably we are in the minority and they do not think it would be attractive to the electorate.

EddieIzzardismyhero · 25/08/2010 20:23

I think the general mood of the nation is that they are good schools because they get good results but I would argue those results have absolutely nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the type of involved parent who will push to get their kids into these schools.

I was interested to see further back in the thread that all public schools in the States are secular - considering what a religious country it is.

Sadly it doesn't look like any government any time soon is going to propose the abolition of state sponsored religion but we can live in hope.

Roobie · 25/08/2010 21:52

As a practicing catholic my dc go the local rc primary largely because it is a good school and naturally we were able to get into it. However, I would much rather it were not a catholic school. I actually want my kids to stay catholic and therefore have a deep understanding of their faith - the wishy washy blah taught at catholic schools is certainly not sufficient to do this without parental 'top up', which most kids don't get at home. On its own, school religious education may even actually turn kids away from the church.
So the concept of catholic schools being hotbeds of traditional catholic dogma 'brainwashing' kids and using public money is totally false.
I would be more than happy for religious schools to be done away with and parents instead encouraged and assisted with religious formation within the sphere of the parish or religious community.

Heracles · 25/08/2010 22:15

"found some info from a religious site that quotes some scientific info which seems to tie in with what the church says.
www.dianedew.com/condom.htm"

An article (in a lcoal American paper) by Diane S. Dew.

Google "Diane S. Dew" and see quite how balanced that particular "journalist" is. Hmm

daftpunk · 25/08/2010 22:53

SW;

Apologies, I've been longer than 5 minutes.

Ok, I'm sorry you think my responses are inadequate, I really haven't got alot of time to post, I know it looks like I spend all day on here but I'm usually just flicking through whilst in the queue at Sainsburys or somewhere....I'm very much a "post & run" type of poster...not run away from what I've said...but ykwim..

As for the quality...I guess to the untrained eye my posts can look a bit messy, but if you actually read what I'm saying and take it in...(not think; "oh another post from the idiot DP..")..then you'll see I make sense, and I know what I'm talking about...

Re; books on homosexuality in primary schools.

I haven't got a problem with them per se, I know there are gay parents who need books that reflect their lifestyle, and heterosexual parents who want to teach their dc about homosexuality ASAP....that's fine, but it's not something the majority of catholic parents want. I have dc at catholic schools so I know this is the case...& really, you should understand and respect that.

Perhaps "propaganda" was over doing it....apologies for that, however I get really pissed off when non-believers want to force their ideals onto others. You like diversity and celebrate differences, yet with me (and catholics) you just want to put us down.

I don't get it...

but I'll get over it...

edam · 25/08/2010 23:12

Princess, the thing about the Catholic church and HIV is that they don't just say 'we don't approve of condoms', they actively spread lies to try to discourage people from using them.

I wonder how many men, women and children have been killed as a result of Catholic anti-condom propaganda? I wouldn't like to have that on my conscience. Although the Pope's seems to be fairly elastic, given the rather lengthy list of crimes against humanity his organisation has committed. The one where victims of sexual abuse by priests were told if they ever breathed a word to anyone they'd be excommunicated and go to hell was particularly shameful, but there are so many others to choose from...

Heracles · 26/08/2010 00:31

"Perhaps "propaganda" was over doing it....apologies for that, however I get really pissed off when non-believers want to force their ideals onto others. You like diversity and celebrate differences, yet with me (and catholics) you just want to put us down."

Cart before the horse there, dp. You're the one advocating banning the teaching of subjects and situations due to your "ideals". Forcing an opinion can be achieved by denying education as well as enforcing it, after all...

mathanxiety · 26/08/2010 00:50

Spacehopper, I agree about state schools being secular. I believe secular state schools can be and should be the bulwark of any diverse democracy, as in the US, where parochial and other private schools are all fee-paying, and state schools are free (paid for by all taxpayers that is).

From the Guttmacher Institute -- condoms are overall 87% effective in preventing HIV infection.

Contrast this with 100% for abstinence or monogamy.

PrincessFiorimonde · 26/08/2010 01:06

Edam, I am definitely not defending this pope or previous popes, and absolutely agree with you re: victims of sexual abuse and the way the RC Church has tried to keep people quiet in order to maintain its image.

But I'm genuinely interested as to how the RC Church has 'actively spread lies to try to discourage people from using [condoms]', as I have never heard of this. (Apart from what I said earlier about 'Don't have sex outside of marriage. If you don't have sex outside of marriage, you won't get HIV/AIDS. Therefore, condoms are not needed. End of story.') Are you talking about RCs here, or also people outside this religion? Can you provide a link to this anti-condom propaganda, or is this personal knowledge?

(If the latter, I am both Angry and Sad on your behalf.)

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 26/08/2010 01:55

Things like this I think Princess Fiorimonde, as well as the whole "condoms are porous" thing, of which there is an interesting (although IMO totally flawed/bizarre) exploration here. (Yes it's the Catholic News Agency)

I don't conflate the individuals with a Catholic faith, with the leaders who IMO have done untold damage across the world.

People who are saying "men won't just start using condoms because the Pope says so!" - maybe not, but at the moment the men who don't want to wear condoms have the entire force of their faith and their church to back them up. If the Catholic church would advice using condoms to stop the spread of AIDS, it would make a huge difference, because at least then the option would be available and up for discussion. At the moment a woman who wants a man to wear a condom not only has to overcome his own relectance (if any), but also the edicts of the church FFS :(

There's also been the not inconsiderable matter of US funding only being available to NGOs that don't provide access to or advice about abortion. Reagan, Bush Snr & Bush Snr all had this in place, and it hugely restricted access to funding for the people who would usually be providing e.g. free condoms.

mathanxiety · 26/08/2010 03:08

These African men who are infecting women with HIV are all Catholics then? Please tell me you have some sort of statistics to back up your claim that African men (or any other men who refuse to wear condoms on the advice of their parish priest or local bishop or because of anything the Pope may have said, anywhere in the world) are all Catholics.

Because, as you know, Islam really frowns on sex outside of marriage, and many of its more conservative leaders have preached against condom use. You are no doubt aware that the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) also oppose condom use. How do you know the men who are refusing to use condoms are not influenced by what either of these two churches, which are both present and active in Africa say?

And again, why do you think men who are promiscuous are paying any attention to any church? Did HIV/AIDS get started in the first place in the US because members of the gay community where it first surfaced were too troubled by what the Pope would think of them to use condoms? This argument that the Pope could make any difference in getting at-risk groups to wear condoms is absolute baloney.

Condoms are very un-African. They are held in suspicion because they are culturally alien, just as the polio vaccine was rejected in Nigeria because it was allegedly part of some white man's plot to destroy African Muslims, and because, let's face it, many people in Africa are butt ignorant of basic science.

This is a continent after all where a Minister for Health (SA) could advocate garlic and herbs and lemon juice and vitamins as a cure for HIV, where sex with virgins (often meaning the rape of babies and little girls) was held to be a protection against HIV (again SA), and where just this week it has been reported that a mass rape of women and baby boys took place as an act of war (Congo), and where rape of women has been happening as a means of government sponsored terror (Darfur) for years -- are you seriously trying to tell us that the Pope merely has to change his mind about condoms and the future will be bright for African women and girls? Men have ruled the African roost, unchallenged, with very few exceptions, for thousands of years.

What is so terrible about the Catholic Church (or the Mormons or Islam) preaching about respect for marriage, about taking vows seriously, about doing what western women would expect men to be doing after all (take a peek at the Relationship topic here if you think western women don't value fidelity in marriage/committed relationships).

loopyloops · 26/08/2010 09:07

Oh dear.

You say that condoms are very un-African, and that "many people in Africa are butt ignorant of basic science". Why could this be? Could it be due to the fact that the RC church and other misogynistic and hierarchical organisations such as the Church of LDS have restricted access to education on such matters?

For a very long time, Christian organisations have "educated" large parts of Africa, sending missionaries, often with no formal training in any field other than indoctrination, to put across the churches' opinions on matters such as this. So forgive the African people for being "butt ignorant" (FFS), as responsibility for this lies with organisations like the one you are defending. With no access to scientific materials and an abundance of indoctrination from religious loons missionaries, how are the African nations supposed to educate themselves?

onagar · 26/08/2010 09:08

TheFallenMadonna, I'm sad too. You clearly worry about what it is you are supporting these days, but the most vocal supporters of the church are those who are loyal like Abraham was and I find it sickening.

(for those Christians who don't read the bible god said to Abraham "kill your son" and Abraham said "okay, where do I stick the knife in?"

That kind of obedience is what your church stands for and anyone who told you it was about fluffy sheep just wanted to get their hands on your money and/or your kids)

I see an organisation that is corrupt and criminal. That at its best
put the 'glory of god'(and the profit of the priesthood) above truth and decency. Over truth and equality. Over love and happiness. That even as we speak fights to preserve the right of its inner circle to flout the law. That had the nerve to compare investigations into abuse with the treatment of the Jews.

I think it's time we stopped making excuses for this cult and any who support it.

edam · 26/08/2010 09:33

Jesus said 'suffer the little children to come unto me' AND that if anyone harmed a child, it would have been better if they'd never been born. Yet the Catholic church, which is supposed to work in his name, supported and enabled systemic child abuse and threatened and silenced the victims.

That's not an organisation that deserves any respect at all.

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