to be fed up of people using Aspergers as an excuse

[SomeGuy]

Just reading DM (yes, IABU, I know), story about some bloke who got into a facebook tiff and sued for libel:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1298010/Facebook-libel-Law-student-dubbed-paedophile-wins-10-000-li bel-damages.html

'Jeremiah Barber posted an indecent image of children on Raymond Bryce's page on the social networking website along with the comment: 'Ray, you like kids and you are gay so I bet you love this picture, Ha ha'.

The image, which hundreds of users could see, showed Mr Bryce superimposed on to a collage of pornographic pictures.

It was 'tagged' with Mr Bryce's name, allowing his 800 friends on the site to see it.

His victim, who is now a law student, pursued the civil claim against his former school friend and was awarded £10,000 at the High Court yesterday for the stress and anxiety the incident caused him.'

'Mr Bryce, 24, who lives with his parents in Stone, Staffordshire, suffers from high functioning Asperger's Syndrome, but has secured a place on a full time degree course studying law at Stafford University.'

So in other words he's intelligent and successful and has lots of friends. So why should we care that he 'suffers' from Aspergers? It doesn't make the libel any worse, or make him more of a victim.

Here's another story, from Friday:

www.thisiskent.co.uk/tunbridgewells/Asperger-sufferer-admits-cash-card-theft-friend/article-2442184- detail/article.html

'Sevenoaks Magistrates' Court heard on Friday how 22-year-old Michael Funnell, of Addison Road, invited a group of friends around to his house for a party on March 6.

He took their coats to hang them up and when Steve Goodwin's back was turned, took his bank card, before withdrawing £120 from a cash point.

He had memorised his friend's PIN when with him a couple of days before.

Brian Ferris, defending, said: "I am told my client has Asperger's syndrome. He can offer no explanation as to why he steals in this way."'

You wouldn't get them saying 'I am told thay my client doesn't have a very good job, because he is not very bright.'

Another story from today:

www.thisistotalessex.co.uk/news/Spared-prison-camera-showers/article-2442265-detail/article.html

' A MINISTRY of Defence manager who set up covert cameras to watch naked men in the showers has been spared jail.

Hensman, who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome, was working as network manager in communications and systems at the MoD police HQ in Wethersfield when he was accused of voyeurism.

Judge Anthony Goldstaub QC told him: "You were originally prosecuted for sexual offences [voyeurism] but because of your psychiatric makeup these charges were dropped.

"In February 2006 you set up some sort of video recording equipment which recorded movements of people coming in and out of the showers, involving some images of naked males' private parts.

"You were doing it because of your psychiatric condition."

Asperger's is an autism disorder characterised by social interaction problems.

Judge Goldstaub said that people have to "accommodate" others with psychiatric disorders and be "tolerant", adding "it's not their fault".'

It seems to be a popular plea for people accused of child pornography offences:

www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/2031606.indecent_images_man_avoids_jail/

'A BARMAN who was caught with more than 900 indecent images of children has been spared jail.

Southwark Crown Court heard because Jonathan Bristow had Asperger's syndrome he could act on impulse and become obsessive about collecting things.'

I know. I agree. It is no excuse.

I'm a firm believer that these conditions make choices about how you behave difficult but should not excuse behaviour totally.We all know how to behave.

YANBU, but you will be flamed, PC brigade at the ready...

im interested in how this thread develops.

it reminds me of when people cite mental illness in murder/rape/GBH cases.

YANBU but as baby says hope ur ready for a flogging

shall watch with intrest

That's true indeed scurry. My children both have autism. Now I had a choice. I could have said they can't help how they behave, make excuses and allow them to do what they will. Or teach them how to behave. I chose to teach them how to behave. It's harder. You have to do it differently. But it's doable.

And if the child is so severely affected that they are incapable of learning, of being taught any idea of right from wrong, then they are hardly likely to be high functioning, employed and living independently, are they?

I agree.

The problem is, that when it's used in this way as an excuse for awful behaviour, it tarnishes all sufferers in the same way.

These kinds of stories are why you see post after post on here with parents of kids with ASD heartbroken because their children are being excluded from friendships, and parties and made out to be in some way 'bad'.

Have you been trawling for all the news stories that mention Aspergers for a reason?

hmm, i'm thinking about this now.

i think if you do something wrong, you should be punished, especially if that wrong has direct negative impact on another person. no matter what mental illness, no matter if your gran just died or whatever horrible thing is going on.

but then when i think of wives who kill their abusive husbands i feel relief for them.

yes I have bibbitybobbityhat, because it was mentioned gratuitously by the bloke sueing the idiot on facebook and it made me think 'what the fuck is the relevance of that?'

hmm, not sure about that, Hecate.

my brother is HFA. Very high functioning, in that he can live independently, can hold down a job (if he chooses to, some would say. more like he can hold down a job for a limited time, until he can no longer cope)

he steals.

always has done.

it is compulsive.

he is intelligent, he knows he will be caught, and punished for it. but still he does it.

he did when we were children (pocket money, any toys/gadgets he wanted, money form our parents, my mums wedding and engagement rings, other jewellery, etc) right through teenage years - wages, more jewellery, any presents lying around.

he stole the money I got for my 18th (was due to live off that for first bit of university until grant came through, etc), and blatantly lied about it - it was either him or the cat

he just has no concept of why he shouldn't do it. well, no. he does know, but he really cannot help it. that is not an excuse because he is my brother (we don't get on, unsurprisingly). it is pure compulsion - kleptomania, i suppose - he sees something, he wants it, he takes it.

so I don't agree with your assessment of functioning levels and knowing right form wrong.

and I'm not sure I agree with "Or teach them how to behave. I chose to teach them how to behave. It's harder. You have to do it differently. But it's doable." either. dd1 is severely ASD, but reasonably functioning. I can see where she might struggle with the concept of ownership in the future, though.

Difficult... it does seem to fit AS, collecting things and no impulse control, but it also seems to be a bit of a get-out-of-jail-free card IMO and I speak as a parent of an autistic child. Where do you draw the line?

At the moment DS loves collecting and lining up toy animals. I do believe / hope that one day he will have the social awareness to realise that making a large gathering of other people's money robbed from a bank is not desirable.

Plenty of NT adults struggle with this concept though

Sorry for garbled post, I don't know whether YABU or not but it will be interesting to see this thread develop.

It is most certainly harder but it is not impossible. There may be the difficulty in choosing right behaviour but it can still be taught, otherwise there is no hope whatsoever and people would be incarcerated. There is great success in modifying behaviour.

The thing is, for almost all high crime, like murder, rape, gbh etc surely ANYONE could claim they only acted like this to leave of senses, mental illness, deep psycosis, etc. They can site their own abuse as reasons to 'get them off the hook'.

As a society that likes to pigeon hole its inhabitants with one thing or another, this is going to come up more and more. It has already become a legal loophole to get serious criminals off the hook.

My brother before his death, evaded prison using his mental illness as a reason for his crimes. It makes me shudder how easily he walked away, but my mother of cause thinks this is fully justified as he did not know his own mind...

Just my thoughts, nothing useful to add.

I completely agree that behaviours can be modified, on the whole.

but you cannot expect a behaviour of someone if they have no understanding of the concept of the behaviour. and that< imo, doe snot necessariily fit neatly into a high/low functioning arrangement.

I have high hopes for my dd1, and we are constantly modifying her behaviour (fought for ages to get her into an ABA school, so she can have this full time!), but there are some things you cannot do, and create understanding out of thin air is one of them.

But your brother knows it's considered wrong. He just does it anyway. That's not the same as having no understanding that what you are doing is considered wrong. He knows there are consequences if he's caught, but he does it anyway.

So he therefore makes a choice to do something that he knows he will be punished for. Because his need to steal is greater than his desire to not have to face the consequences of stealing?

Knowing right from wrong is not the same thing as doing right instead of wrong.

They can know that it is something that they will be punished for, and still do it.

And they should still be punished. It should not, imvho, be an excuse that gets them off the hook. Which is what it seems like lawyers are aiming to do in these cases.

but that's my point, hecate. he doesn't choose, in the way that you mean it.

it honestly is a compulsion. he doesn't just take things he wants (explained badly in my earlier post) or needs. just stuff lying around.

it is not something he can help. it is not a choice, as you or I would make.

it really is not as simple as "knowing right from wrong and making a choice"

sometimes, there is no choice, despite the knowledge.

and sometimes, the knowledge cannot be had/learnt, despite apparent high functioning.

Should we just punish for the crime and not look at why people commit these crimes perhaps? Surely the crime is still the same whoever it is commited by?

I am not saying, btw that he should not be punished.

just that it is not black and white.

there is also the point that we (as in his family) assume he knows right form wrong, and understands that - he has, after all, been taught it, shown it, had it explained time and again, etc.

but it is, of course, possible that we are extrapolating form his high-functioning appearance, because, on the evidence so far, one could equally assume he has absolutely no concept of it, and can only parrot successfully what he has been taught for the last 40 years.

YANBU
I think AS is quite a broad diagnosis - and some will have compulsive tendencies to collect. But most won't. DH has AS, but certainly without the compulsions which makes the divide between wrong and right fade away; just a total lack of social skills and the ability of being very (unknowingly) upsetting.

as a parent of a child with HFA I would say I agree, too many use it as a reason for behaviour. My DD1 knows things are wrong and knows the choices she makes will result in something, although unless you have expereinced it or been told its not always easy to imagine what the results will be, iyswim!
OP your right the first story didnt need the ASD plug in it. The others i havent had chance to read.
ASD doesnt mean you dont always know right from wrong but it may mean that you might know what the outcome would be if you did it. hope that makes sense.

It seems that we are teaching these children right from wrong, ie do something wrong and you will be punished, then as adults saying do something wrong and bugger all will happen!

YABU. Judges / Juries don't make these decisions lightly. They all probably went into the case thinking it was black and white - he was guilty. They have then listened to a whole lot of evidence and come to this conclusion. So drawing your own conclusion from a newspaper write up is being unreasonable.

For example the face book example. If this is the first time he's done it - who could have taught him it was wrong? You just really can't predict what ASD kids do and don't understand. No one told you this was wrong - you just inferred it from all the other things you've been told are wrong over the years. But ASD kids normally can't make inferences or generalisations like that. So if you tell them 'this' is wrong they won't realise that something else which is similair but different is also wrong.

Have some compassion. Having ASD is a terrible disability.