to be fed up of people using Aspergers as an excuse

[SomeGuy]

Just reading DM (yes, IABU, I know), story about some bloke who got into a facebook tiff and sued for libel:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1298010/Facebook-libel-Law-student-dubbed-paedophile-wins-10-000-li bel-damages.html

'Jeremiah Barber posted an indecent image of children on Raymond Bryce's page on the social networking website along with the comment: 'Ray, you like kids and you are gay so I bet you love this picture, Ha ha'.

The image, which hundreds of users could see, showed Mr Bryce superimposed on to a collage of pornographic pictures.

It was 'tagged' with Mr Bryce's name, allowing his 800 friends on the site to see it.

His victim, who is now a law student, pursued the civil claim against his former school friend and was awarded £10,000 at the High Court yesterday for the stress and anxiety the incident caused him.'

'Mr Bryce, 24, who lives with his parents in Stone, Staffordshire, suffers from high functioning Asperger's Syndrome, but has secured a place on a full time degree course studying law at Stafford University.'

So in other words he's intelligent and successful and has lots of friends. So why should we care that he 'suffers' from Aspergers? It doesn't make the libel any worse, or make him more of a victim.

Here's another story, from Friday:

www.thisiskent.co.uk/tunbridgewells/Asperger-sufferer-admits-cash-card-theft-friend/article-2442184- detail/article.html

'Sevenoaks Magistrates' Court heard on Friday how 22-year-old Michael Funnell, of Addison Road, invited a group of friends around to his house for a party on March 6.

He took their coats to hang them up and when Steve Goodwin's back was turned, took his bank card, before withdrawing £120 from a cash point.

He had memorised his friend's PIN when with him a couple of days before.

Brian Ferris, defending, said: "I am told my client has Asperger's syndrome. He can offer no explanation as to why he steals in this way."'

You wouldn't get them saying 'I am told thay my client doesn't have a very good job, because he is not very bright.'

Another story from today:

www.thisistotalessex.co.uk/news/Spared-prison-camera-showers/article-2442265-detail/article.html

' A MINISTRY of Defence manager who set up covert cameras to watch naked men in the showers has been spared jail.

Hensman, who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome, was working as network manager in communications and systems at the MoD police HQ in Wethersfield when he was accused of voyeurism.

Judge Anthony Goldstaub QC told him: "You were originally prosecuted for sexual offences [voyeurism] but because of your psychiatric makeup these charges were dropped.

"In February 2006 you set up some sort of video recording equipment which recorded movements of people coming in and out of the showers, involving some images of naked males' private parts.

"You were doing it because of your psychiatric condition."

Asperger's is an autism disorder characterised by social interaction problems.

Judge Goldstaub said that people have to "accommodate" others with psychiatric disorders and be "tolerant", adding "it's not their fault".'

It seems to be a popular plea for people accused of child pornography offences:

www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/2031606.indecent_images_man_avoids_jail/

'A BARMAN who was caught with more than 900 indecent images of children has been spared jail.

Southwark Crown Court heard because Jonathan Bristow had Asperger's syndrome he could act on impulse and become obsessive about collecting things.'

an insensitive thread when people are struggling with kids with ASD and their behaviour IMO

Hecate - I completely disagree that it is always possible to teach a child with autism how to behave. If you have an adult who cannot understand sentences, who perhaps understands a few nouns then you are no more able to teach them how to behave than a 12 month old baby. But they are a very big adult able to physically follow their compulsions/impulses. You don't have the tools to reason with someone when they have no language.

Not relevant to the OP but I do think it's important. That attitude is one reason why when ds1 (11) kicks off in public I rarely say he has autism and instead say 'he can't talk' or 'he has severe learning dusabilities' or don't bother saying anything at all. No point if people will just assume it's an excuse.

TBH I think this is just the DM being s bit daft. A defence might play the Asperger's card but it isn't allowed as an excuse most of the time. It also plays into the idea that people with AS are predatory and scary when in fact they're usually some of the most vulnerable members of society. Unable to access services because of their IQ but with limited self help skills. I have seen a very able young man with AS - trying very hard - but totally failing to notice that he'd stood at the wrong end of a buffet queue. The waiter almost lamper him - got very shirty (AS guy didn't notice that he was annoying said waiter). And this as at an autism conference ffs. I felt for him - and it was one moment when I was pleased my own son will require 24 hours care - at least his vulnerability is recognised.

Okay, lets just give the benefit of the doubt for a minute and say its not the "sufferer's" fault.

If they keep doing these things because they can't help it...who's fault is it?

Because we can't just have people who can't help their behaviour breaking the law and doing wrongs against others out there in society.

People without disorders get jailed or fined. They either stop, or are put out of society.

If these people are not stopped (by a carer, I suppose, in a prevention sense) or put out of society, then what? Do we have to be willing to be stolen from, or filmed getting changed, or branded paedophiles, etc, because its "not their fault" (which it may not be), or is it someone's responsibility to stop it happening?

I dont object to it being not their fault, or using it "as an excuse" - it may well excuse them from the behaviour. But who's responsibility are they? Because if they can't be responsible for themselves, someone should. That's all. No, I'm not saying they should be locked away in institutions like the good old days, but to have this grey area of nobody being responsible and people having to have crimes committed against them is not really acceptable either, or is it?

Totally insensitive thread IMO!! interesting that the OP hasn't been back to it either

Well I think you touch there on the total lack of support for adults with AS. I have sat at many a meeting where the lack of support is lamented but nothing happens. There is nothing out there - which is why problems arise. I don't think many turn to crime though - more often self harm/suicide. Don't have figures but it's always what I've understood to be the biggest risk. Despite these DM cases the biggest risk for someone with AS is being at the receiving end of bullying. Seeing this group as predatory rather than vulnerable is unhelpful and really doesn't reflect the reality.

If my son ever steals it will be the fault of whoever was meant to be supervising him as he will never have a concept of possession. He will never understand what is his let alone anyone else's (it's why we have to watch him in McD's and cafes or he will eat other people's chips). For someone more intellectually able on the spectrum the lines are obviously more blurred -and really you are going to have to consider responsibility on a case by case basis. My son's is easy to understand, much harder for those with a higher IQ.

But, sloanypony, whose responsibility is it?

In the case of dd1, that's easy. She's 5. She is clearly my responsibility. And we are working on her behaviour, constantly. But, as I said earlier, I can see that she will probably have huge issues with the concept of ownership, to take just one example.

But in the case of my brother? Who is response sable then? He was badly failed by the education and social services system in the 70s, and is still failed now. He has huge problems living g his life. But he is nearly 40, and ostensibly high functioning enough to live independently. But that does not mean he actually properly understands how society works. He knows a lot a out it in a technical sense. But he doesn't grasp the concepts most of the time.

So, who is responsible for him? We have no parents. He won't let me do it all (and not sure it is my responsibility either) - to him, I am his baby sister, and always will be. It isn't right to him to need help from me.

So he continues to be punished for things he doesn't fully understand. And some people on this thread think that is right, and that his dx should not be used as an explanatory factor in his behaviour.

Maybe I able stop trying so hard to enable dd1 to live like that. MrsT has a good point - she would probably be better off needing full time care, as acknowledged by all, than being left in a world that refuses to accept that she may do things over which she has no control whatsoever.

The OP has been back to the thread, at 23:37.

I'm guessing he/she may have gone to bed after that..!?

Yes but we all hope for independence don't we silver - when really it can be a double edged sword. I know people like your brother and over the years I've become shocked at how many times I've heard professionals say how much help is needed but isn't there abd still nothing happens.

I know someone who works as part of a mulitidisciplinary team who goes in to families/schools and respite and works with an individual child to help with challenging behaviours. Many clients have AS/HFA and she believes what she does makes a difference and prevents problems as adults. She is expecting the team to be axes soon - too expensive and the LA prioritise spending on NT playschemes rather than this small but vulnerable group.

Shame because it's exactly the sort of scheme that makes a difference.

Confused by OP.

I dislike the way it is giving AS a really, REALLY bad name, but then, if these people have something up with them it needs to be taken into consideration.

Saying that I have AS and have never stolen or whatever - I don't think it's particularly relevant.

Makes me feel sick to think people would compare me to someone like the bloke in the article.

But Someguy, what was your actual point? Why does it make you fed up? Is it because you think they are making it up, because you think everyone with AS is a bastard, what exactly are you trying to say?

In the first example in the OP, the fact that the victim had Aspergers might have been a factor in this appalling bullying, so it might have been relevant.

Also, I'd have thought that people with Aspergers would suffer more than most in prison.

Any defence lawyer who is any good would be failing in their duty if they didn't bring up any mitigating circumstances.

My Dad has ASD and received extra help and support from Social Services because it made him unable/unwilling to manage his diabetes properly, despite the fact that he had no dementia and was perfectly capable of looking after himself in every other way. He had an extra couple of years of life thanks to this help, and I am very grateful. His only tablet-and-diet-controlled Type 2 diabetes killed him at the early age of 76 because he just couldn't, or wouldn't, manage his tablets and diet, due to ASD.

I think he just doesn't understand what AS really is, probably believes all the usual stereotypes.

Whoops my Dad "had" ASD. Wishful thinking

Personally really hate the fact that people are seen to "suffer" from AS/ Autism.

Of course it's used as an excuse, lawyers will use anything about a person that can possibly mitigate. If the person has anything about them that is outside the norm, it will be mentioned.

BWH - I do suffer from mine.

Leonie, my DD had no sense of danger until she was about 3.5, she used to jump off things expecting to be caught, now is quite cautious and careful, so don't despair yet!!

Leonie - I'm not saying it is never possible to teach a child with autism to behave I am saying you cannot claim it is possible to teach all children with ASD to behave. If you have a child with HFA you can use tools like social stories and token systems which you cannot use with those who have limited language.

Not many of those severely affected sit and rock in a corner. I suspect life would be a lot easier if they did.

Whatever aspects are not the 'right sort of normal' do need some kind of management so as not to terrify an already bewildered public.

If this perception grows that we are somehow 'a different normal' and unchangeable, unpunishable, etc then it will really do a lot of damage.

For instance my 'different normal' issues are mainly things that affect me privately, but I do make a pretence of being normal in order to carry out basic social duties.

Coping strategies are often very good, good enough to fake it so that nobody realises you have AS - they might see you as a bit different or odd but it isn't a major threat.

These lawyers have a huge responsibility not to demonise AS. I doubt they will care about that as long as their client gets off though.

Sorry leonie I think I misread your post and withdraw my

ds1 (11) behaves pretty well in contained spaces (locks on doors etc) as he'd calm. Outside he's at the mercy of his complusions so he has to sniff every lampost, jumps down the road, runs up to windows, tries to ring bells, tries to get in open doors, dashes across the road, tries to get behind tills. He's an utter nightmare. We have spent years working on 'nice walking' to no avail I've decided to give it an intensive try this summer while I have help in. Going to tackle it from lots of angles - but god knows ig it will work

Luckily there seem to be lots of armchair psychologists on this thread who can give me tips.