Payments to ex wife. Opinions sought.

[TheWaspFactory]

I'm told this is a good place to get opinions. Don't hold back please ladies...

I have a six year old son to my ex wife. We have been separated for about 2 years now and are on cordial, if not friendly terms.

He lives with her and I see him every other weekend.

I currently pay a considerable sum every month to my ex by way of child support. This amount is much more than I would pay through a CSA enforced agreement. I actually suggested this amount as I want the best for my son.

Living and financial arrangements have been agreed between myself and my ex wife informally.

I should point out that I'm by and large happy (well, satisfied maybe) with the concept if not the execution of this plan. Ideally I'd like to have full time residency of my son but my ex wife has made clear she doesn't want this to happen so for the moment, this situation is probably the best for all concerned.

However, I've an issue with the amount I pay and how it is used. I pay this cash for the benefit of my son - not my ex wife. I neither care nor know how she supports herself. The thing is I'm not convinced she is actually spending this cash on my son.

Would I be unreasonable to ask for receipts or some kind of evidence of where my money is going? I appreciate that a significant amount of this is rolled up in to my ex wife's living costs (housing, etc) which can't be separated from supporting my son and to be fair he's not exactly going hungry but I end up buying him most of the stuff I expect my monthly payment to pay for. For example, I end up buying the vast majority of his clothes when he's with me, most of his schooling expenses (trips, uniform, etc) are paid by me, toys - again by me. All the material things end up at my ex's home.

As far as I'm concerned I'm supporting my son - not my ex wife. This money is meant to pay for him, not her handbags and holidays.

I'm tempted to tear up our agreement and go down the official route. As I'm self employed the amount the CSA would specify would be a fraction of what I'm paying now. The balance I could put in to a trust or similar for my son when he's older.

However, before I do this, I thought the receipt idea might be a fair push to actually get wife to spend my money on my son.

Opinions please? I appreciate that this may not be a "popular" post but thought a view from the "other side" might be enlightening...

The remark about the trainers was no being funny.
His ex says they NEED these trainers...so he HAS to buy them!
This is what happens when people divorce...mothers make fathers feel guilty because they do not see their kids everyday. So they use that guilt to procure expensive stuff the kids WANT not need.
Fathers get a rough deal/ OP is giving over the odds to ex because he wants it to go on hid child....not her.

Give the guy a break, fgs.

Well first of all can I say well done for having given your son money at all. My ex doesn't pay a penny, hasn't paid a penny in the 3 years since he dumped us.

Whatever he thinks I would do with the money he doesn't give me I don't know. I was not the irresponsible one and my whole life is about providing for my boys which I do myself.

So, I asked him to put money in their savings accounts. He hasn't and won't but if you are unhappy then why don't you give your wife some for the raising of your son and put the rest in a savings account in his name. I doubt there is a mother out there who would have issue with this and cannot think of a reason why it would cause problems.

I also asked him if he could buy certain things. He obviously has an issue with giving me money (party, party, party ) so that was another idea. Last year he bought them a jacket each and a pair of shoes each. Ahem.

Again this could be an idea.

It is lovely that you care for your son, see him so regularly and hopefully don't cancel visits at the last minute. No matter what you are doing a good job if your son knows you love him. That is worth gold.

yes OP you sound like a good dad...wanting to be with your DC etc. Do what you thimk is right for you and your DC....forget her and her handbag fetish.

Really Bananalover ever been a single mum and had to raid your kids piggy bank to put electric on the meter?

Wasp - I am shocked but not surprised by the responses you have had today ...unfortunately. Your OP might as well have said that you never see your kid and you couldn't give a shit. It astounds me the amount of women who for one is selfish enough not to give their ex equal access to the kids (obviously there are some really good reasons not too) and two - think that they should be funded by their ex's.

Your son is of school age - your ex should be going out to work ...you would need to pay 1/2 of the child care incurred + £500ish at a push for other things needed inc bills - put the rest in a savings account.

receipts - stupid idea ..don't do it. If you even decide to have another child with anyone again ....make sure they don't use Mumsnet first

Well I stand by everything in my earlier posts, but £2500!!!!!!! . Bloody hell, that's a lot of money. Unless there are expenses I'm not aware of (e.g. school fees or private tuition) covered in this, I think the OP can reasonably request to reduce payments. Still think asking for receipts is insulting, however, and by far the best solution would be for OP and his XW to start talking.

I'm not a mum but I feel somewhat qualified to comment as my parents were divorced and money was a huge issue for us (I say 'us' because, inevitably, we were drawn into the whole shebang).

OP, I can completely understand why you would want to make enquiries about this. I don't think you're being unreasonble - however, I do think you're on shaky ground.

As other posters have suggested, it's difficult to quantify how much a child costs. Especially if, as you say, your wife is now working part-time while he goes through school. She's presumably losing a large chunk of her income to take care of your child. I assume you're still working full-time - in which case I wouldn't grudge her the odd handbag as she is doing a very important job and taking a big py cut to do so, for the benfit of your child.

However, if you think she's taking the mick then it's fair enough to want to query it.

What really worries me, though, is the effect this might have on your son. My mum and dad separated when I was 10 (there were four of us, with me being the oldest) and it was hideous. They argued about money for years - my dad wasn't giving enough (he was self-employed too), my mum wasn't spending it as she should, blah blah blah. The upshot of it all was that my siblings and I had a really horrible stage in our childhood that no amount of money could fix.

Your son sounds happy and you seem like a caring dad. You say that your relationship with your wife is cordial. Believe me, it's well worth the handbags if you can keep it that way.

I'd give her the benefit of the doubt until you have conclusive evidence to suggest she's spending inappropriately. If you must, sit down together and discuss it from a more general POV - nothing accusatory or inflammatory.

Freerangeeggs - he says he;s not spoken to his wife in two years, that's not what I call cordial.
Waspfactory: you say that you buy your DS Nintendo games and shoes that your XW 'should' be buying for him. So it doesn;t sound as though you are needing to step in when she lets him run around in outgrown clothes or doesn't feed him. You'fre buying him things he wants, not things he desperately needs. It may be that she hasn't bought him the nintendo games because she thinks he has enough games already and/or spends too much time playing with his nintendo. It's not impossible that your DS has noticed that you despise his mother and will believe anything bad of her and has decided to turn this to his advantage in that, if she says 'No' to buying him something (for what might be a perfectly valid reason) he can get you to stump up.

It's not a bad thing to buy your child treats, of course. But it is a bit grim when you do so in what sounds like a way of continuing warfare with your XW. She left you. Get over it. Try to make friends with her as it will benefit the whole of the family.

You've been given good advice here. By the sounds of it, you're a relatively successful or rather wealthy person and you should share that with your son. It means he is being brought up in the kind of environment he would have been brought up in if you hadn't split from his mother. It means he is not paying for the split.

His mother is not a parasite. She works, looks after a child and a house and presumably she has some income and her partner has some income. Let them be a family unit without unnecessary tensions that will affect your son.

By the way, the things children need are often more expensive than the visible things they want. In my case (although I'm not in the uk) I pay for dentists and school books and school uniforms and extra curricular events and school shoes, all boring things that my children dont appreciate. If their dad bought them a nintendo DS (and no child needs one of those fgs) they would think he was more generous. UNTIL they grow up and have that moment of realisation.

The sad thing is that its not this poor guys choice that his son isnt with him half the time..

If it was 50/50 his ex would still need to pay for house (ok maybe only one room instead of the 2 she needs as the son would stay there half the time) She would still need to pay gas, electric, food etc. So her out goings wouldnt be much less if the boy was only there half the time.

But of course then residency would be split 50/50 so she wouldnt get any maintenance..

So she'd be £2500 out of pocket every month...

Surely no one could spend £2500 on one 6 year old in a month?

Hi the Wasp Factory, I think you are behaving very reasonably but perhaps feeling a bit like your generous support is being taken for granted and hence that you are being taken for a ride. Your ex will know that she is dependent on you and not wish to express her gratitude as she probably feels uncomfortable with the situation.
Dads do have a responsibility to keep financially supporting their kids, but so do mums, and having a six year old does not stop you getting a job.

My ex pays me £680 per month from his £5000 plus net income as per bare minimum CSA guidelines and I pay for everything for our two younger children.

Things are very tight but I don't want any more from him. We can't afford holidays whereas he goes abroad with his girlfriend several times a year. I drive an old banger, he has his brand new £30k 4x4. That's up to him. His attitude is that I 'chose to be a single parent' so he expects me to meet my children's needs alone.

Have a calm chat with your ex and ask how things are, financially. Does she ask for extra money for all those things? If not maybe she just assumes you want to buy them and lets you get on with it.

DHs ex used to get 3000 a month from him at one stage. After she got the full proceeds from their house sale. She funded her course, holidays for her and her partner, her handbags her Gym membership etc whilst her new BF who was loaded paid for everything else. It was a v v difficult time but he was adamant not to get CSA involved. She didn't work so v different from Op situation.

We knew because the children would tell us what was going on and they felt bad themselves. It did pass but it was hard not to feel resentful.

It is a complete reality that Women do spend their alimony on goodies for themselves, anyone who thinks otherwise is v v naive.

It is interesting op that on a large percentage of the posts the statements is

You and Your ex should start talking

so whether you talk and sort out how you are going to parent apart and be good parents for your son - or whether you want to start talking to your ex and talk about the financal contribution you give for your sons upbringing.

BUT talking is the answer to your question

Am a bit at the comments on here that 2500/month is somehow too much. The whole point about maintenance is to ensure that your children have the same quality of life - if possible (not always possible on low incomes), that they would have done had you and your spouse stayed together. So, to paraphrase an earlier poster, if you earn a lot, you pay a lot; if you don't earn much, you don't pay much. Otherwise, the child is brought up by a resident-p who scrimps and saves, while the non-r swans around on his/her private yacht - hardly conducive to a good upbringing.

There are, in effect, two tiers of maintenance. For those on low incomes, the resident parent probably won't get enough to support the children fully, because that would leave the non-r parent without enough to live on too.

But, if you are like the OP and can afford to support yourself and your children in a comfortable lifestyle then the law expects you to do so.

OP, your options are i) seek shared care - via the courts if necessary and ii) pay your ex the amount she is legally due for spousal and child maintenance plus, if you want to pay extra, pay school fees, swimming lessons etc direct. You have no right to inquire how she spends her household budget in the same way that you would not expect her to question yours.

Absolutely chiccadee.

Besides, as the op hasn't spoken to his x in two years, but knows what handbags she's bought recently, I'm wondering if there'd be an amount that he was comfortable with!

I somehow doubt it. Supposing he reduced the amount to 2,000 would that suddenly get rid of all of his feelings of resentment and bitterness towards his x wife?? Hypothetically, HOw low would he have to reduce the amount until he felt happy that his x wife never ever bought so much as a magazine or a cup of coffee!? that might or might not have been 15% paid for by his maintenance!! And supposing this magical amount could be found, where he was at peace with paying maintenance, would the reduction have NO affect on his son? I doubt it! The whole family would be tightening their belt. Using less hot water perhaps, not eating so many salads, taking fewer trips or whatever........

Thinking about it, pretty much ALL of DH and my money goes on our DC. We really wanted DC and that is why we worked hard in proper jobs rather than arsing about travelling and pursuing hobbies on minimum wages.

I can totally see how £2,500 could be spent on one child in a well-off household in London:
£1000 nursery
£1000 towards mortgage
£100 towards utility bills & other household bills
£150 food inc school lunches
£100 activities and presents for other children's parties
£150 clothes and uniforms
leaving nowt for Christmas or holidays etc.

yes duplo but form OPs posts it seems he pays for a lot of this on top..

If residency was split fairly then these costs would be halved and each parent could be responsible for their half.. then theres no resentment.

In my experience, a lot of the time the non resident parent will still have an extra room in their house for when the child stays there, plus buys clothes, toys, does activities etc. so they end up paying for the child at their house... and the child at their ex's house. That has never seemed fair to me..

Unless of course they decided as a couple thatthe ex would leave their career to raise the children and then one leaves.. seems to me there is a bit of a moral obligation there to help the ex out a bit.

but if resdency was fairly split then the op wopuld still pay out for the shoes, haircuts and nintendoo games and so it will still cost him. Then ontop of those extras op would need to find childcare and pay for it - when perhaps he could be spending time with the other parents - thus making the residencey unfair as the child would either be spending more time with one parent or in child care seeing neither parent....

It does seem as if the residency is the key but I just haven't ever seen such 50:50 shared residency in real life. All my school friends with divorced parents and all my divorced colleagues had / have similar arrangements to the OP i.e. the children spend every other weekend with the dad.

I think it must be very difficult to share residency more fully unless both parents work part-time and / or live pretty much next door to each other.

Otherwise, the resident parent is always going to have to spend more money maintaining the child than the nonresident parent, I know it's not nice but surely the reality is that the NR parent could take the child away every other weekend and doesn't technically need a family home whereas the resident parent really does need a family home, particularly if that is what the child is used to.

but ivykatie the child was in childcare when the parents were together.

And it seems to me as the ex wife works part time, and OP contributes a lot of money, he is paying for childcare now.

Maintenance money isnt paying for your ex wie's time is it? Surely its paying for the cost of the child.

I dont know Duplo, The only case I have seen where the non resident parent doesnt have a room anyway for the kid is at my ex's house. DD sleeps on the floor when she stays. And everyone I tell is horrified so it cant be that common..

Take the child away every weekend?! Thats going to cost more than having an extra room at the house I think!

Depends though doesn't it, I think some NR parents have to hole up at their parents on residency weekends. I'm not saying it's nice.

But at your ex, foureleven, absolutely! Surely he could sleep on the floor and she could have the bed? How much does a fold out bed cost FFS!

Can we get this straight - he isn't paying a lot of money - he is paying a percentage of his income and that percentage may well be less than another father earning less than him.

If a earns £300 per week and pay £75 per week maintence - is that a lot of money? If b earn £2884 and pay £576 per week - is that a lot of money?

Which father would be paying more a or b?