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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think some people's sense of entitlement is unbelieveable!

204 replies

Starbuck999 · 14/07/2010 13:44

Was at a friends' house for coffee arlier today. One of her friends was also there who I have met before but only on a few occasions.

Normal gossip; home, partners, kids, work etc. Friends' friend (let's call her X) says she can't believe income support is changing so that those with kids aged 7+ will no longer be excluded from having to look for work. (I know it's been lowered to the age of 10, but she's heard it's going down to the age of 7). She has a son who is 8 at the moment and she was genuinely disgusted at the thought of having to now look for work. She was saying how difficult it is to raise a child alone, clean, cook and work(she is a single parent) and how there aren't many well paid jobs at the moment, not many that fit in perfectly with school hours etc.

It annoyed me. I too am a single parent with a 6 yr old dd. I work full time and have done so since dd was 2. It IS hard work, I AM shattered, I have HAD to arrange childcare, JUGGLE my working hours and homelife etc - but I feel glad that I am working to provide for my daughter. I explained to her that it isn't easy but it is very much possible for almost everyone, exceptional circumstances omitted of course. I told her she wouldn't have to work full time, would get tax credits and help with childcare costs etc if she works just 16 hrs a week. "Well then what's the point" X then said "I'd be no better off" I didn't have the patience or the time to explain to her that the point is she would be working and not relying on benefits to pay for her and her child. That working shouldn't be an option, benefits should be there as a last resort, not an easy one.

This isn't a bash at those on benefits (been there before) or single parents (I am one) more a little whinge about the rubbish attitude of some people.

So, AIBU to think that she (with one school age child) has no reason not to work?

OP posts:
SanctiMoanyArse · 15/07/2010 09:37

You se Red, I am not sure there would be.

There would be more available yes but that's not the same as ahnded out is it?

There is a very vocal group (not sure if monority or majority) who don't really 'get' SN- what it costs, how it affects lives, why aprents struggle to work. That coupled with rates of ASD hitting 1% of the population mean that there will be a movement to steer away from it financially.

Now, charities such as the NAS emphasise that people like my DS1 when given help can be self supporting as adults- but then it takes employers who are willing wo work with support agencies to do that and employers don't want to, especiallyif there are 50 people for every job that don't need it (there are exceptions; there is an excellent model of a thriving firm that only recruits people on the spectrum but that is so rare).

Children like ds3 who won;t ever self support- from a purely economic viewpoint, why invest in theM?? Nthey don't breed (do won;t raise children to pay the next generation of taxes) and cost a fortune. You don't want them satrving (becasue of population sentiments)- but what else/

It's a growing issue; tehre are LEA's that try to avoid suporting ASD now as there are too many kids with it, social swervice depts that have blanket no ASD rules. Entire PCTs that ahve ditched their adult diagnostics service becuase too many poeople get diagnosed (bear in mind the viewpoint o my Lecturer, a distinguished Psych leading a highly regarded tertiary DX team) that adults only referr for dx if they are experiecing significant difficultiers- eg psych, or in financial, employment or relationships areas.

AS for teh DLA thing- ah yes. When George Osbourne announced that he talked about using it to acvoid work; except DLA is often paid alongside working. it's designed to meet the costs of the disability rather than provide living money etc- that's separate. He meant EMA is the thoughts of many people. A few weeks after the announcement he stated on about changes to EMA and my best guess is he didn't really initially understand the differences between the two, but won;t back down now.

Apparently DLA is the least fraudulently claimed benefit (the forms and paperwork are horrendous) so it seems an odd target but people fixate on the cases that do reach the news don't they, so it makes good publicity.

Quite how I am supposed to demonstrate AS annd anorexia / bullemia (awaiitng final label) in a ten year old to a visitng Psych though is anybody's guess; I know Riven on here is concerened as well about the MS diagnosis she has- where quite as per usual some days she can walk, some days she is in her wheelchair.

And in many ways I guess thats why threads like this get my goat; people are happy to rant about single incidences they know of someone wqho is a bit feckless, but campaigsn to support DLA etc get nowhere becuase people don;t see it as affecting them. If we could find a positive way to channelt hat evnergy imagine how much we could achieve- but we can't, we're trying and becuase the thoughts that would elad to soemone conceiving that they or those they love might need DLA are so painfulo, it's easiest for people not to face up.

Well, that's my explanation anyway.

In 2 years if we are lucky enough that we can continue to manage the costs I will ahve my MA in ASD; my background is aprental support so ideally I'd like togmo inyto that, probably not for profit or if DH's business takes off even charitable sector. I can see huge isuses there very soon.

Triggles · 15/07/2010 09:48

"Absolutely it's fair to question fouerelecen; i do so frequently

bUt at a polirtical level, not by confronting people (as in op) or making judgements about people whose stories you can't know"

Sanc - this is it, exactly! Thank you!!

I find I have little patience for those who make a sweeping judgement based on very little information about people. We don't live on benefits, however, I certainly wouldn't presume to make judgements about those who do. We've had a rough few years, and I can only say "there but for the grace of God go I" in that respect. It wouldn't take much financially to put us over the edge right now. We are working on changing that, however, it is simply where we are right now.

But then, I think some of my distaste is also for those who spout the phrase "single mum" as if it is a nasty condition. Too often the single mum is held up as the example of our benefits system gone wrong, and I for one am sick to the teeth of it. I'm not a single mum, but I was one years ago. People look down on you, make assumptions and judge you, treat you like dirt (or at least try to), without knowing a thing about you. Where is all the venom for the irresponsible fathers??

I also question what the government spends money on - but, as stated above, that is through political channels, not on a personal level. I don't like seeing millions of pounds going to foreign aid or paying for unnecessary dignitaries to visit at the expense of our own schools, children, elderly, and NHS. But again, confronting a single mum over coffee is not the way to make inroads into solving these problems. That's just petty and unnecessary.

RedArsedBaboon · 15/07/2010 10:06

Triggles - you are missing the point. Who is saying 'singles mums' and grouping them together. Nobody on this thread. Everyone has stated that it a certain element who take the piss, some of which are single mums.

You sound very holier than thou with some of your sweeping suggestions, and in fact are stirring up a thread which has become more civil and more of a discussion rather than a rant 'all those on benefits are scroungers' which is not the case.

Triggles · 15/07/2010 10:25

Holier than thou and making sweeping suggestions? Me? For simply saying that it's preferable to maybe have all the facts before making a judgement on someone the OP barely knows? For saying that I didn't like that many in the general public view single mums as the example of benefits being paid out unnecessarily? Or for saying that I don't agree with everything the government spends money on?

Since I was agreeing with you on part of it, I fail to see how that is stirring up the thread. Yes, I can see that this that you posted is so much less confrontational and less likely to stir people up good grief :

"I think what alot of people agree but don't dare say on this thread for being flamed is that there are many single mums, or jobless people who actually have chosen this lifestyle. Nobody can deny that. There are kids gowing up whose only 'job' is to have kids andbeing given a house and everything which the government provides. It is an easy life. Sorry but it is.

There are jobless scum out there, they couldn't give a shit if you or I worked, as long as they are getting paid."

or this:

" So, the government desperately needs to weedle (sp?) those scum out and get them into work, whether they like it or not. There is far too much being given to them so they have no intention in doing jack shit about it. "

...wandering off to find the "beating head against brick wall" emoticon.....

foureleven · 15/07/2010 10:37

Triggles; I think we all make sweeping statements from time to time.. for example where you have said
'I'm not a single mum, but I was one years ago. People look down on you, make assumptions and judge you, treat you like dirt (or at least try to), without knowing a thing about you.'

In my experience people do not do this, I only ever received positive feedback for my single mum status. So this is a sweeping statement saying that all people do one thing.

Generalising can be very damaging and i agree that some people lump all benefits claimants in together under one big 'scrounger' banner. But if we didnt generalise sometimes we wouldnt be able to have an opinion on anything at all.

Triggles · 15/07/2010 10:47

I understand what a sweeping statement is, so truly don't need to be educated about it. LOL I didn't intend to say ALL people, I meant to say SOME people. Obviously I should have proofread my post. I'll blame it on the distraction of a 3yo and an 11mo old. But it remains that I have personally witnessed this type of behaviour by towards myself and others on numerous occasions. Obviously it's nice that you haven't had to deal with that.

I agree generalising can be damaging. Hence why I said I didn't like it when made particular generalisations. Doesn't mean they can't have an opinion, but also doesn't mean we have to agree with them.

Tn0g · 15/07/2010 11:14

I hate these kind of threads, hate the thinking behind them.

I'm not in the UK, I live in Ireland, but of course there are people trying to live and raise families on social welfare here too and I can only imagine that for the very vast majority it's incredibly, grindingly hard.

I'm lucky, I can work, I pay my taxes.

My taxes don't go where I want them to though, they go toward sending repugnent twits who call themselves politicians off on jaunts round the globe in the pretence that they are actually doing something worthwhile, helping our countries economy, etc.

I work as an art teacher and I teach adults, some of whom have in the past or who presently live on an extremly meagre amount, which they don't view as an entitlement at all.

One thing they all mention is the feeling of hoplessness and being on the edge of society rather than a part of it.

FioFio · 15/07/2010 11:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

SanctiMoanyArse · 15/07/2010 11:19

Ta for that Fio, will go have a look (no surprise though!)

foureleven · 15/07/2010 13:06

Can beleive it definitely.

MollieO · 15/07/2010 13:13

I completely agree that women (or men) should have the choice to stay at home and raise their children. However why should they claim benefits in order to do so?

swanandduck · 15/07/2010 13:25

TNoG

I'm Irish too but I do empathise with this thread. The point being made is that some people choose to stay at home and then expect other people to support them financially. People who can't get work or are unable to work are a completely different thing and I don't think any right thinking person would object to taxes going to support them.

grapesandmoregrapes · 15/07/2010 14:32

There are people that need to claim benefits, because of redundancy, poor health ...etc. and there are those that can't be arsed to even look for a job. I have a feeling that those on this thread getting worked up by so called 'benfits bashing' are those that know they could actually work if they put their mind to it.

Of course there aren't many jobs at the moment, but why should that stop you looking. And a lot of people have the attitude of OP's friend: why bother when its easier not to, and the government will pay.

It is appalling that people think they are entitled to have children and lead the life they want to at the expense of others. Of course you cannot predict how your life will turn out, but I see no reason why those that are able to work should not at least try and work.

Triggles · 15/07/2010 15:56

"I have a feeling that those on this thread getting worked up by so called 'benfits bashing' are those that know they could actually work if they put their mind to it."

Bit of an assumption, that. We're not on benefits, but I still don't like to see the benefits bashing. I'm not the target, but I still think it's dreadful and inappropriate behaviour, so why should I sit back and watch it without saying something in their defence?

usualsuspect · 15/07/2010 16:02

I work and I hate the benefit bashing on MN ..so keep your assumptions to yourself grapes

SanctiMoanyArse · 15/07/2010 16:05

'getting worked up by so called 'benfits bashing' are those that know they could actually work if they put their mind to it.

is that me?

Only benefits we get are carers (which is why we're here at all) DLA (ditto above) and tax credits that, erm, top up DH's earned income

You know earned- as in worked for, employed.

Could I work if I really wanted? I do really want, poverty isn't fun; I want to go back to the days when I thought my kids were developing fine and I had a job that gave me a buzz. That would be nice. Autism sadly isn't nice.

DS3 could access a childminder but as his drop off from his SNU clashes with the lcoal school no CM can take him on; someone has to be home to pcik him up, he couldn't cope with a nursery setting. DS1 wouldn't be touched by any local CM as he has a rep which is probably deserved albeit due to his DX; there's no after school clubs from 11 and he turns that very soon.

I work night and day caring for the boys at what i worked out to 17p an hour in carer's allowance; that is categorically not what I spent years working up to or studied for my degree for.

So maybe check a few facts before you throw silly comments about?

OptimistS · 15/07/2010 17:11

Triggles/Foureleven/RedArsedBaboon - I think the single mums things is a media stereotype. I have never experienced prejudice as a single parent nor have most of the other single mothers I know (apart from a few occasions from people in authority). However, I find that the people who are very supportive of me and other single parents quite often make sweeping statements about other nameless single mums on benefits who they have never met, usually qualified by "I don't mean you, of course". The truth is that most single parents are JUST like me. Over half of them work and most of them were once in a couple. Even those on benefits who were never in a stable relationship have a very plausible backstory if you take the time to listen. The myth of that most single mothers have never worked, have 15 kids by 15 fathers and live in large, airy social houses is just that - a myth, propagated by a media dominated by right-wing bigotry. Most people have been bombarded with it so much now that they believe its true, even though they quite happily admit that they know no one like that themselves. Yes there are women like this but they are in a minority, and a small one at that. And again, what about the fathers - these children are not conceived via immaculate conception, and if the father wore a condom there would be no baby after all)

thefirstmrsDeVere · 15/07/2010 17:12

I am in a similar position to Sancti (may I call you Sancti? )

A lot of our income comes from benefits - DLA for OH, a lower rate for DS, TC, CTC. We also receive an adoption allowance.

All of this is vunerable to change. If a government wants to make a point and appease the knee jerkers they can stop any or all of it.

I HATE relying on benefits. Particularly at my age (40s). It didnt seem so bad when I was in my 20s because I knew it was short term and I had tons of options.

We dont sit at home rubbing our hands together gleefully at the thought of fleecing the tax payers. We are the tax payers.

I wonder how the bashers would feel if they were expected to be so beholden to their 'benefactors'?

When I mention my circumstances on these threads I always get 'oh we dont me you, we mean the ones that blah blah blah'

Where are these people? Most people I speak to have valid reasons for being in the situation they are in. The vast majority are counting the days til they can get out of it and do not have to account to every tax payer who thinks they have a right to comment on their lifestyle.

SanctiMoanyArse · 15/07/2010 18:38

Oh I hate I don't mean you

it transalates please don;t interrupt my rant with actual sense; or look you are annoying me now by interrupting my bigotry

thefirstmrsDeVere · 15/07/2010 18:55

or 'damn someone has just ruined my theory by proving it wrong, with actual evidence and everything'

Tn0g · 15/07/2010 20:33

lol at Swanduck insinuating that I'm perhaps not completely sane because I don't share the view made by the Op.

I am mad, completely and utterly and was once certified but that's a whole other thread.

Regarding this thread, I can only make judgements based on what I know to be fact through actual experience.

The people I teach who are on benefits have no sense of entitlement but they are entitled to help because they can't cope/manage and I'm more than happy to give that help.

If you have experience of people who cheat the system then of course that's wrong. and if the op knows things about the lifestyle of the woman she deems to be a...scrounger? she didn't give any examples of how this is so.

To me she sounds like someone living on very little who is now expected to live on even less.

People are complex, their lives even more so, I do what I can with what I've got and try not to dwell on the negative aspects of life because when you do that you become quite disgruntled and lacking in empathy.

The op sounds unhappy with her lot.

grapesandmoregrapes · 15/07/2010 23:08

Well I think you are all very generous to willingly give a proportion of your earnings to people who can't be bothered to work, I however would rather see the money going to improving the NHS or helping people who are actually unable to work.

Sanci - as my post says, there are people who really do need help from benefits for whatever reason, and I have no problem with that. The problem I have is people who are able to work, but just don't, for example the couple on Fairy Jobmother a few nights ago.

foureleven · 16/07/2010 10:20

I saw that grapes.. the guy said 'theres no one to motivate us to want to work, someone needs to give us a reason to work and help us be motivated'

Then the screen panned to his little 2 year old daughter...
FFS what more motivation does a person need than a little person to feed and raise?!

SanctiMoanyArse · 16/07/2010 13:23

Grapes I suspect the bit that upset people was 'I have a feeling that those on this thread getting worked up by so called 'benfits bashing' are those that know they could actually work if they put their mind to it.
rather than the rest

And you know we have paid 40 yaers (20 each) of taxes between us (DH stilld oes obv though not much)- that counts too. I see it as insurance which if youa r elucky you don't need, but if it all goes tits up......

Although to paraphrase the lovely 2shoes on another thread- (and this is not aimed at anyone specifically, just an atiitude I am trying to adopt) if people want my benefits (into which i include free school SN holiday club as wella s cash) fine but they have to take the disability for their kids too,

And nobody would, of course.

BarmyArmy · 16/07/2010 14:26

If you pay people to be unemployed, they will be unemployed.

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