To think banning the burka

[hairytriangle]

Is a waste of time? If people want to wear it then they will. Let them be!

YANBU. Much as I utterly dislike the burka and the niqab, a ban would be counter-productive. Those women who wear it out of piety would be deprived of their choice to wear what they like(whether I agree with it or not) and those who are forced to wear by their family it will be locked at home. A ban would achieve nothing except feed islamophobia IMHO.

But I would be happier in world without it, a world in which men are not considered to be so weak and out of control that a woman must hide her face to be "protected" and a woman is not reduced to her "chastity". Much happier.

Riven _ it's in Belgium, but I have a tasteful blue burqa from Kabul market - polyester pleats and all, with a knotted mesh bit for the eyes. Until I moved here it was in Cornwall and used for RE lessons.

melikalikimaka - "What do women who wear the burka, do when out for a bite to eat, or a coffee in a public place? What about breastfeeding, which is natural, in public?"

I can answer a) here, as a lot of the ladies at soft play wear niqabs. The face mask part is tied on dangling from a headband round the forehead, so if they want to eat/drink coffee, they can just flip it up over their head. Not sure how they decide when that's safe/modest to do though

I can't see how you could whap out a tit in a modest way though...hmmm... suppose you could put the baby under the whole shebang, kind of like a huge version of the muslin-over-head-and-boob manouevre?

I am very doubtful that many of these women breast feed.

I am not against women who wear burka.....I do feel sad for them though.

Religion sucks in so many way's.

it must be amazing for people that believe in some kind of god. I only wish I could feel that love for someone that I can't see in the physical sense.

tis not for me to judge but it's not a way that I would want to live.

Bonsaibab really? That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation from wearing a burka to not bf...

This is an interesting debate. On one hand I feel strongly that in UK it's my right to wear whatever I choose. That's the same for anyone. End of story.

But - if I went to Saudi Arabia to live, I would have to accept that I couldn't go out in a miniskirt. I would have to adapt to the local customs and cover up. Fair enough. In the UK, for most people facial expression and eye contact are an integral part of communication. So is it unreasonable to expect Muslim women to adapt to local custom in the UK?

(And on a more facetious level I don't get the thing that wearing a burka is liberating because it frees you from having to do your hair and makeup. I don't wear any makeup either, although I do manage to brush my hair most mornings.)

You doubt that the women bf that is so far from the truth

There are front fastening garments that make bfing easier

I wear hijab only, and occassionally jalbabs no niqaab but found bfing easy as nobody ever noticed what i was doing, i just slipped baby up under the scarf i was already wearing and pulled top down.

If you are wearing a jalbab wou unfasten from the fromnt and slip the baby inside like a coat.

I have also in the womens section of the mosque, sat crossed legged on the floor and put baby underneath the fabric from the bottom, like if you were wearing a long top, as unlike if you were wearing a dress you have trousers underneath so arent revealing all your legs/underwear

Sorry for generalising.

It is great that a woman can BF without showing her chest or her face.

I applaud that woman.

What an amazing bonding experience it must be for the child.

Haven't read all the posts so apologies if I'm going over other peoples points.
I don't think that the Burka should be banned. There seems to be an assumption that the majority of Muslim women wear the Burka because they are forced to. This may be true in some cases but surely it would be better to increase community support for women who are being abused in this way than to ban the Burka outright which would actually be an abuse of the rights of women who wear the Burka through choice.
As for situations where security or communication is an issue. I'm sure these can be handled more sensitively - i.e. female security checks for women, microphones for teachers etc. I do believe though that these issues are actually a veil (excuse the pun) for the real issue that some people are unable to tolerate things that look different.

Well you dont bf like that all the time, just when out in public at home you can bfeed however you choose

A bit like bfeeding when co sleeping in the middle of the night when its too dark to see, it doesnt damage any 'bond' as the child feeds able to see you the rest of the time

Is quite useful for easily distracted babies too, means you dont have to go disapear into a feeding room for ages as the baby doesnt want to concentrate on eating

My issue with the niqab is that it fetishes a woman's face and hair as sexual objects. As does the hijab to a lesser extent. But what of those of us who don't wear them? So then to people who are used to seeing the women in their circle of their family and friends covered in this way it must be tempting to see women who do not cover themselves in this way as outrageous exhibitionists. I don't want to see the 'goalposts' of acceptable dress moved in this way.

A male muslim neighbour of mine with whom me and dh have always been very friendly with looked absolutely mortified when he saw me walking to the supermarket the other day wearing a summer dress with my arms and lower legs uncovered, and would not look in my directions when saying hello. This makes me feel very uncomfortable and I do feel that he would be judging me as dressing like an exhibitionist when in actual fact it was a pretty modest dress.

The personal is political. Wearing this stuff is a political act, advertent or inadvertent. Plus it's also a bit of an affectation, aping the Saudi upper classes, like the Victorians used to ape the wealthy. Women should ditch the thing and stop being so easily manipulated.

Just scanning through the posts there seems to be a lot of pity for women who wear the Burka. Is it inconceivable that some Muslim Burka-wearing women could be educated, strong women who choose to wear the Burka?

I can't see how you can legislate on what a woman wears. Women who cover all or woman who don't cover enough! Security is something else and has to be reasonably dealt with. I don't like the niqab or burka and the messages it seems to give out. No problem with hijab which I can find quite pretty, elegant and practical. I think fundamentalisnm is on the rise and this is what worries people and could explain why there seems to be more niqabs and burkas. My friend is Malaysian and says she has seen a huge difference in the way Islam is on the rise in her home country, in the way people dress and the way the islamic laws are enforced. I think this is what people worry about.

Personally I don't object to the burka on the grounds that women are forced to wear it. If they are being mistreated then in this country they don't have to stand for it. We have police and social services to protect people from abusers. While mistreating women may be acceptable in some places it is not here.

As a man I do find it offensive that a major reason given for wearing it is to protect from filthy white men like myself. A symbol that meant 'blacks/jews keep away' would not be allowed.

I could live with that though. There are plenty of women without masks who think that all men are rapists. It's ignorant, but I'd shrug it off.

I really don't want to see a situation where men will be barred from places or refused employment because it's easier to just have women there so the muslim women can relax and uncover.

In a previous thread on this subject someone said something like "I don't have to wear it all the time. I get to the nursery and can uncover there'

Yeah, right. Providing no men are allowed in. No dads or male staff.

I also don't think security should be compromised because of it. It's no good saying that a muslim woman will show her face in the right circumstances. That's not going to work in the high street bank is it and there is a reason we spend so much on CCTV.

Also next time you see a woman in a burka (on a dark street perhaps or in some place like a changing room) ask yourself how you know it IS a woman? There have already been cases of people taking advantage of that.

If you're a nursery teacher letting someone in a mask pick up a child be sure it is the right person. If it's not then guess whose fault it will be.

We make rules all the time about what people can wear and this is no different. I can't turn up at school/work naked and I can't turn up in a mask.

I read the entire thread and in essence, most of us are agreed it would be counterproductive to ban the burqa, first because its backwards step to ban things, and secondly, if women are being forced to wear them against their will it will only isolate them.

I agree with scanty, its the rise of fundamentalism that is behind most westerners dislike of the burqa. No point in dressing it up or defending it as a political point, we have to step off the fence and deal with the fanaticism that is home bred.

thats so ignorant to say that wearing niqab means people wont breastfeed!! not sure if you are aware that many many muslim women feed til 2 yrs? its probably more common among muslims than among the population as a whole...
they would find somewhere private to feed obviously

as for eating you can get a lot of restaurants with private rooms or screens, if a group of niqab wearing sisters together wanted to go and eat out then just book those rooms, its very common in london, leictser and places with muslim population. or some foods are easy to eat under niqab if they are dry foods.

as for the above point about how do they know its a women/how do they know its the mum etc, you are still recognisable with it on!! i can recognise any of my friends with it extremely easily and at a distance too, it has never once been a problem. when i wore it people also recognised me fine, absolutely no problem. you can tell from the voice, from the hands, body etc that its a woman. a man in a niqab and abayah would be quite bate really, you would notice the build is not right, if he opens his mouth to speak.
once this lady goes to me in a baby clinic "you have to show your face to prove your their mum" i mean really how does that prove it?? some mothers might not even look like their children, what are they gonna do look and say "oh same nose, you're alright then" or "no your face doesnt look that similar, so i cant take it as proof"???
(i did show her, and she just sheepishly went okay then..)

Firwala - I don't really understand your point. How do they know it's the mum - beacuase normally the mum is known to the staff just as I am known to my children's teachers. To the general population - it would be difficult to tell if it is a man or woman under a niqab or burka - but I don't think this is really the point in question.

Yabu;

The sooner it's banned in this country the better. It has no place in western society as other (sensible) European countries recognise.

yeah, what will we ban then?

shellsuits
those low baggy jeans showing the knickers
high heels

"As a man I do find it offensive that a major reason given for wearing it is to protect from filthy white men like myself."

Really? A major reason for wearing burkha is to protect from WHITE men? . Where did it say so? The Daily Mail?

megapixels, actually from MN lately.

Pity you stopped reading then as there was more after that.

Riven, quite right too. I'm going out tomorrow wearing a swastika and I'm not letting anyone tell me I can't!.

We have to stick up for our right to do what we like and not consider wider society.