To think banning the burka

[hairytriangle]

Is a waste of time? If people want to wear it then they will. Let them be!

5DollarShake
I see your point but it's completely irrelevant. It's not your job or place to be tolerant of other people's choice of attire. Plenty of women who wear niqab (not burkhas by the way) are western so don't assume it's a 'them/us' situation.

It comes down to basic human rights. I hate the sight of a woman with her face covered, wearing socks with her sandals and black gloves in 35 degree heat, I find it an anomaly and it frustrates me. However, I don't have the right to tell her not to wear that getup any more than she has the right to tell me to put a long sleeved top on. We can privately disapprove of people's choices of dress but what we cannot do is legislate against it.

Far better, if you think a woman is being oppressed or abused, to make friends with her and offer your support, than drive her indoors by banning her choice of outside clothing.

I don't believe the majority of niqabis are being forced but for those who are - H bans going outside without niqab + society bans going out with niqab = woman stays indoors. Great result

I don't think women are necessarily being oppressed or abused. And I certainly don't think it's a 'them/us' situation. I am purely coming at this from a feminist angle!

I just think it is very interesting that only women wear them. Why don't men wear them, and why are there not the same expectations for modesty, etc placed on men?

My sole problem with them is that men do not also wear them.

Exactly right, Eric. I can't help but wonder if we are confusing our fear of/confusion at someone who is different from us w our desire to "liberate" these "oppressed" women.

i disagree with the person who said its like saying f off dont look at me and dont be my friend, i used to get on fine with people with it on and really not alot has changed in that, i dont think it makes THAT much difference there, if you make effort to talk to people they can see you are normal, nice, quite similar really to them in a lot of ways.
yes it definitely become more common wearing niqab in the last few years, i think just part of a trend of younger people becoming more dedicated 2 islam because most of the people i know who are wearing it or starting to wear it are young people like 30 yrs and under. they are wearing it whereas there parents just wear hijab. majority of those i know dont believe it compulsory however some of them do, many people just want to do it as an extra thing to help them in their religion, feel closer to Allah, just to try to go the step further to exceed just the compulsory things and do as much as they can, be the best possible they can according to our religion.

YABU, They create a barrier and cause division in the community. I can't stand seeing a woman (assuming it is a woman) completely covered with only 2 little eyes peeping out. It is a joke trying to have a conversation as they can't even be heard properly due to their mouth being covered. Some pathetic men somewhere in the world designed these ridiculous tents and they have no place in any part of the world let alone western europe. The Koran teaches that woman should dress modestly as does the Bible. Nowhere does it say that a woman should cover themselves head to toe in a tent. Why is it that 15 years ago Muslims in the UK weren't wearing them? The Koran has been in existance for thousands of years why is this garment only being worn here in the last few years?

there are expectations of modesty for men 5dollar but its just slightly different level, however they do have rules of what they have to cover and not supposed to be wearing tight fitting clothes. in some areas where you see alot of women in niqaab u do see many men wearing long thobes, so cant say its all women in head to toe black and the man in shorts and t shirt. they are not technially allowed to be wearing shorts if its not longer than their knee, it does go both ways

The face is something people connect with and memorise, think back to some you loved and lost, you will always know their face. The burka takes away this. There is no where in the Koran that says you must wear it. I totally disagree with the wearing of them for the reason that women are not free, they are kept captive in them. Don't give me they want to wear them, the family or husband have 'encouraged' them. I saw a muslim family out shopping the other day, it looked like three ladies, maybe a mother and two daughters, the mother around 60 yrs wasn't wearing it, one daughter wasn't and one was covered from head to foot. I felt sorry for her, it was a hot day. But it goes to show that the older generation, maybe not born here do not feel the need to wear it and some younger ones also. It is down to pressure from the husband or maybe his family. Never mind the fact I couldn't go to town, airports, banks,train stations, without maybe a second glance if I wore one. I just feel sometimes they wear it to unsettle everyone around them especially on somewhere like the tube. I don't care what people say after me because that is what most normal and realistic people in this country think.

Agree thesecondcoming.

Its all about personal choice, and what gives the state the right to dictate what is appropriate for someone to wear.

I have never seen a man with his face covered. I don't think we should legislate against anyones choice of dress, but I do feel quite indignant when I see women covered from head to toe when the men are not. I'm afraid it presses all of my feminist buttons.

5DollarShake
I am also looking at it from a feminist perspective.
1 - it's not very feminist to assume that women are always being forced into things by men. Quite often women have their own minds and make their own decisions.
2 - Islam is not an equal doctrine, but if a woman chooses to subscribe to it, that's her choice.
3 - a policy which drives potentially abused women into the home and out of public view is not a feminist one, IMO

Islam is very widely interpreted. There are tribes in the desert whose men cover their faces. Men are supposed to act and dress modestly, that's why they wear tunics over trousers sometimes. They aren't required to cover their faces but they are supposed to cover arms, pelvic area and legs, and wear loose clothes. They are supposed to be 'chaste' and keep their gaze lowered. The fact that more women follow this than men is an interesting one, and pretty much follows the script that every society seems to follow in which women are the 'moral arbiters' and sexual gatekeepers. Shame - but nothing new or unique to Islam.

And where I live it is by and large just the women who endure wearing them. 88 degrees and the man is strolling along in his nike shorts and t shirt with designer watch and sandals enjoying the summer sun while the wife is stuck under her tent. Never have I seen a more hideous sight.

Eric, Very glad to hear muslim men are meant to cover their pelvic area. Phew!

I also feel it is rude, they can see your face and all your expressions but you can't tell what their face is saying. Communication is not just what a person is saying, it is everything the face is doing too. It is made worse by sunglasses. It is totally ridiculous. I hate it. Also why do these women dress their little girls very western, when they are older, are they going to be encouraged to wear it?

'Also why do these women dress their little girls very western?'

Because they want to, and its their choice?

the purpose of the burkha is to oppress women.

as a free country we can't ban them, but as a society we should take every opportunity to expressing our hostility to the misogynist values the burkha represents.

Nobody has answered my question. Why has the Burkha become popular in recent years. As I said earlier in the town where I used to live it was rarely seen 10 years ago. Now it is very common and it seems to be worn by young women.

You know what, you're getting on my tits malika. In the case of my MIL - she wears hijab but her daughters don't because it's up to them. Fuck sake. Why does it boggle your mind that some women might make choices that are different to yours?

Upahill
radicalisation, more or less. With the way things have been more young people are identifying as strongly muslim and that shows in their dress. These things are also cyclical - their parents may have actively rejected outward signs of 'difference' in order to assimilate whereas their children have grown up with more pride and commitment to their religious identity. It's a positive thing that people feel able to dress however they like without fear of reprisals.

Hijab is fine with me!

Our neighbours are from Pakistan. The Mother wears a Hijab all the time, I have never seen her without it even first thing in the moring. One of her daughters and her DIL also wear them all the time, but one other daughter never wears one, but wears a sari, while the other DIL wears 'western' clothes.

So how can these women be oppressed into wearing them when they all do different things?

Oh come off it, who would choose to look like that?

I think that some Imans in some Mosques are teaching an extreme version of Islam. The Burka is just the tip and I believe they are teaching that Islam is the only religion and that their aim is to turn the UK into an Islamic state.

I don't agree with 'banning' any form of dress, cultural or otherwise. I saw a woman in a burkha speaking from Paris on breakfast news this morning and she said 'What are they actually going to do? Arrest me on the street, infront of my children?'. Well, quite. It is ridiculous.

I do have major issues with the burkha, though. I feel quite ill when I see a man in Western dress leading along his wife in a burkha beside him. Nothing says 'chattel' quite like a burkha.

'The tabloids simply love a good old story about an arranged marriage or a hideous honour killing because it allows racist individuals to justify their hatred of their 'savage' and 'backwards' ways and further highlights this 'them' and 'us' mentality.'

I have to disagree with this - because being Islamophobic doesn't equate to being racist; that is inaccurate. I have issues with Islam and with the whole idea of a theocracy, as opposed to a democracy. That doesn't mean I'm racist, but that I have problems with some of the religious tenets of Islam, and the expression of some of those beliefs. If you wish to say that those who are Islamophobic are racist, then one would have to say that those who are anti-religion are racist, as Islam is a religion, not a race.

I do think that honour killings are barbaric; I think that stoning to death for adultery is barbaric; I consider both to be backward and savage and I think that there is a legitimate public interest in getting these things stopped, as the former is not acceptable in the UK, (or anywhere else for that matter), and that those regimes which allow stoning for adultery should be cut off from all sources of Western funding/aid. forthwith.