To think banning the burka

[hairytriangle]

Is a waste of time? If people want to wear it then they will. Let them be!

I have no problem with people wearing whatever they choose, though I agree that the burkha has communication issues. For example my mum is hard of hearing and has to rely on lip Reading to understand what people are saying.

Personally I would suggest that the burkha casts aspersions on men - surely it implies that all men are crazed sex fiends who will be tempted by the sight of female skin?

It's about control of fertility.

A woman always knows her baby is hers. The time and effort she puts into raising this baby is partially down to her surety in this matter.

A man cannot KNOW a baby is his. He can look for physical features. He can take his wife's word.

How much easier it is to believe a child is yours if you are safe in the knowledge that YOU are the only man to have clapped eyes on your wife's face for 20 years!

And hence the hijaab is born.

It never was to protect women. It was to control women's fertility, something men have long considered as something wrongfully given to women to control themselves.

Controlling a woman's fertility is the point of covering oneself in any way, indeed, is the point of marriage itself. All these silly little customs end, in so many words, with "Nobody's allowed to look at you as a sexual person and you're not allowed to fuck anyone else until I'm DEAD, get it?"

So... who is allowed to see the face of these poor women?

tryingtoleave - A burkha is some women's interpretation of the Islamic command to dress modestly. Female circumcision is not any kind of interpretation of any Islamic ruling. There is no rule that even goes there. I don't think it belongs in the same argument at all. It gives the impression that Islam condones female circumcision.

A burkha is a stupid person's interpretation that is enforced by culture. There is not a single shred of evidence that points to the wearing of a burkha.

Honestly the whole thing makes me too angry for words.

women wearing a burkha in Britain know how they are viewed and do it for political reasons. Anyone that says not is a liar. It's a branding.

It is a quirk that while the Koran does NOT (so far as i am aware) requre women to be veiled the bible DOES require women to be.

Or to cover their heads at least.

1Cor 11:5 ? but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head-it is the same as if her head were shaven.11:6 For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. 11:10 That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels. 11:13 Judge for yourselves; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? (RSV).

thankfully we know enough to ignore that bit.

No ones listening! I take it that when in their own home, they can take it off. What about when BIL,FIL,DN, come for tea. What about friends husbands, are they allowed to see her face and figure? What about the extended family, distant cousins etc.

extended family you have to cover if they are not mahram but can be more lenient with the face i never used to wear niqab from my bils even though they are not mahram (alot of people do but its difficult if you see them alot or spend alot of time in inlaws house, or live there)
if you want to take off hijab they have to be your husband/dad/brother/uncle (as in a real one not just any old uncle or married in)/nephew (real ones)/grandad ie the close relatives, not cousins or inlaws except fil

stubborn hubby it is mentioned in quran to cover, as in head/body. as for face some tafsir/explanation have said it refers to face too but there is hadith talking about covering the face

what is 'mahram' Firawla?

it means ppl who you wouldnt be able to marry cos your too closely related to them, and ur husband that your already married to. basically the close male relatives

TBH I think if they tried that here it would lead to even more women wearing it, as a sign of solidarity and protest. I dread to think how much time and public money would be wasted in legal aid and test cases dragging on for years, protests and demonstrations, and all the security costs involved in those.

The wearing of full veils rather than just headscarves seems to be sharply on the increase in the last ten years, and especially the last 5 or so.

I think it's a statement of cultural and religious identity for many British Muslim women now, rather than purely a matter of religious observance.

Best ignore it.

Mahram family members for a woman:

her sons, father, grandfather, mothers brother, fathers brother, fil, any male children which she has acted as a wet nurse for

(i cant remember atm but i think possibly 'grandfather in law' too)

fanks. following with interest.

What do women who wear the burka, do when out for a bite to eat, or a coffee in a public place? What about breastfeeding, which is natural, in public?

I think that some times you need to see a persons face, Dr's Teachers etc.

Also if you have to remove a crash helmet in a bank to show your face why not a burka?

There was a letter in the Metro last week about this, some misogynistic twat saying how "his" woman was clean and chaste unlike the dirty shamless non Muslim women

I don't need to go out dressed in a black sheet to be "clean" and "chaste", I do not "belong" to any man, and it clearly shows what a twisted, backward, misogynistic view of Islam he has

I've posted on this topic before on some older thread and I think I've changed my views a bit since then. Riven had some good points back then (might be on this thread later!) and I guess now I am more of a mind that if people want to wear it (obviously without coersion) then of course they should be allowed to. However, I still think that women wearing the full weil are inapproachable which to me is sad. Women who are in the hijab are to my mind much more approachable. Simple example, there is a woman in my dd's nursery who wears the full weil and although we sometimes pick up our children at the same time and I'm polite (holding open door, saying thank you for the same - however, never being given a 'thank you' in return but there may be many reasons for that of course) - its impossible to strike up a conversation. Basically I'm getting the massage that I am haram (meaning forbidden in the Koran) as I am obviously not a muslim. In contrast there are several women in the nursery who wear the hijab and I talk to them in a natural 'we've got children of the same age kind of way'. My point being full weil tells me I'm unwanted so I don't interact (without loosing politeness of course), hijab tells me that although the other person and I do not share the same faith the person do not necessarily consider me a 'non-entity' for being non-muslim. So full weil very bad for a happy coexisting multi ethnic society, hijab very good for it. In a very basic way that is my opinion.

My sister requested another oncologist as she could not hear the woman covered from head to toe.

I would not want my children's teachers to have covered faces.

My great Aunt is deaf and partly blind she needs to see someone face when they talk to her.

There are just some situations that someones face does need to be seen

I remember being a bit intimidated by the girls in burkhas in my seminar group at uni 15 years ago, until I actually talked to them.

They told me that they loved their burkhas as they were able to just walk out of the house without worrying about their hair or make-up in the morning. They found it very empowering when they saw us wearing revealing clothes and make-up to - as they saw it - attract and please men.

They used to wear insane shoes though; which was their way of expressing their individuality.

I have mixed feelings about the way that Islam treats women, and about the burkha, but I agree with the OP that we all have the right to choose our faith and dress.

Riven where I grew up women dressed head to toe in black with just eyes showing was a common site, where my mum lives it still is, where I live now not so many.

Personally don't see how forcing someone NOT TO wear something is any more liberating than forcing them TO wear something.

Not read all the posts here. But is this in response to France or Philip Hollobone refusing to meet with his constituency members if they are weraing a burka or niqab?

Is it not just up to the woman wearing it to wear it or not and so it is no one else's business. Excluding women on what they wear [as Hollobone seems to be doing] is biggoted and ignorant surely.