Fuckity fuck

[YouAreMyRain]

SS want to remove DD, today, as they consider her to be a risk to the other children. It's been escalated to a child protection issue. They want her to go full time to her dads.

I feel sick and heartbroken.

(Thought I'd start a new thread as the other one had moved on from its "schizophrenia" related origins and title)

Fuck.

Why not ask for an initial assessment with Ff? It may be helpful to have the cognitive assessments done and dusted (by CAHMS) so a full picture is available for therapy to have the best chance.

Thanks
They will argue that her psychotherapy is a two year process, that she is only eight months in, that she is making good progress and that things are expected to get worse before they get better.

I'm not aware of any research evidence to show that psychotherapy is effective with young children with her problems

And I don't see any evidence that she is making good progress - have things got a lot better in the last 8 months ?

No, "things" haven't got better but her psychotherapist says that she is making great progress within the therapy sessions, ie understanding herself better and engaging with the process but they are so bloody secretive I think they are just saying this to big themselves up

I am not sure that secretive is a good sign.

She is so young. Only 8. I can see that teens need some privacy in therapy but surely not an 8 year old.

I thought I had recalled from previous threads that you had to push to get any individual therapy at all and initially they wanted to work 'through you' because of attachment issues. It seems odd and inconsistent to now be excluding you.

I am not a CAMH psychiatrist so I don't presume to comment in a very expert way but really I have not heard of such long term 1:1 therapy being offered to such a young child. My understanding is that Family therapy is the commonest modality used (which makes a lot of sense because a child operates within their family not independently) or short courses of individual CBT eg for anxiety or art/ play therapy.

I really would want to be more reassured that this therapy is right for her if you have no results to show for it in her behaviour or what she says outside of sessions. Two years investment in something that might fail is a big deal.

Rain no advice from me but to say am reading and thinking of you.

mamadoc - that's right, she attempted suicide in nov 2012, aged six and Camhs only started psychotherapy when the AE/play therapy/attachment expert that PAS were funding, pushed for them to do more in October 2013. She was assessed for psychotherapy and started it last spring, eighteen months after her suicide attempt.

Greyhound - thanks

Rain do you think you are being too obliging? Sadly your dd is a real risk to herself, her siblings and her step father. It's hard but I wouldn't be prepared to provide the wrap around care or allow other dd to be put at risk by having contact with your ex when dd1 is there.
I really do feel for you and your whole family, sadly some children are so damaged they should never be placed for adoption if only because post adoption support is so poor.

Surely the point of any therapy is that it helps the person feel happier and cope better with everyday life ? Not that the sessions run smoothly

It's not about making the therapist feel good about what he/she does

I'm struggling to see how this intervention is evidence based. And I certainly don't see why it precludes any other assessment or work for the next 18 months , when the child is so disturbed and is at risk .

Mince - I am being too obliging, yes, because I miss my daughter and want to see her. It's hard to toughen up when emotions are involved. I will think about that.

Kristina - wonderful points, as always! Thank you for helping me to think (or thinking for me!)

Rain I completely get that and I'm not sure I'd be able to do any different.

Rain, what you are going through is heartbreaking. The secretive comment has alarmed me. Your DD is 8. Surely they have no right to exclude you? I am genuinely shocked they don't go over sessions and notes with you. When my DS went to CAHMS, it was all recorded on film/audio. I was either included in sessions or had a meeting separately. Is it possible for you to have someone supporting you and making sure things are done properly. An advocate of some sort? My DS was 8 when CAHMS came fully on board. The team surrounding him were great but it was made clear that he was younger than they would normally deal with. Fast forward 3 years. Talking about suicide. Emergency team drafted in. Was so badly handled but I was there, DS was able to get hugs from me. mamadoc is spot on.

Rain, I am so sorry your family is going through this, and like others angry you are not getting the support that should be there.
I have no expertise and only limited experience of therapy (we failed at play therapy with ds, and all behavioural interventions for ds through CAMHS has been through me), but I am puzzled by why, in this crisis, no other treatment plan can be considered, to run alongside long term treatment. If I had a long term condition, and broke my leg (an acute 'crisis'), I would expect both to be treated. It sounds like you and your families need support, in addition to individual treatment (s) for DD1. I agree with Kristina.

Just to say that as ever Kristina speak so much sense. And agree with maggiso, ghostinthecanvas etc.

I also personally think Families has a point that a good politician may help you to be a priority if they take up your case but not sure if that will bring you what you need. But if desperate I would be doing whatever, as you are, and that may include calling in something from someone like Edward Timpson, who did the web chat with mumsenet on adoption a while ago.

And agree secretive is so unhelpful. My dd is seeing school link worker who apparently cannot tell me what is talked about and of course dd has not mentioned it so I am in the dark. And our 'issues' are nowhere near as significant as yours.

I also feel that being stuck into something for two years with no sign it is working or will work is frankly alarming.

If emotional pain was physical pain would any of us being willing to submit to a two year regime with no sign of pain relief!

Anyway, no advice but we are all with you, we know how hard it is because you are so eloquent at explaining it and the fact the professionals are not proving more support is shocking.

Thanks all. I am reading everything even if I'm not responding.

Having spoken to Camhs again today. They can deliver DDP themselves (although it would mean some travelling) but there would need to be a gap between finishing psychotherapy and starting DDP. Also, psychotherapy was initially recommended by the AE because of DD presenting as being quite mixed up inside.

It's tricky because she has such a range of issues. My gut feeling at the moment is to ask for an assessment by ff/PAC and see what that throws up and what they recommend. By then we will have the results of the neuro-developmental assessment from Camhs as well. We will then be better informed and can then decide what the most appropriate therapy is and who delivers that. Our Camhs also does EMDR but apparently DD would be unlikely to cope with the cognitive demands of it.

Would they stop the psychotherapy without waiting the remaining 16 months, and switch to DDP with a short break? Even if they can, FF are the experts with providing these kinds of therapy and almost certainly have a lot more experience in it, as well as with working with the whole family (secretiveness just doesn't work well with children like your DD IMO). Given a choice between the same therapy provided by either CAMHS or a specialist adoption support centre, I'd pick the latter every time unless there was some exceptional circumstance.

Personally, I absolutely think a comprehensive assessment by FF is something to push for. Push firmly, don't just ask nicely, and for them then to fund what therapies/support packages FF/PAC recommend.

I would agree that you need to have therapy being provided by as few agencies as possible, in that dually going two places can cause issues. How long is the neuro assessment with CAMHS expected to take?

Good points, lilka. I guess I'm trying to justify my demands for ff/PAC when Camhs, on paper, can provide a similar service. I want to be well prepared for the meeting tomorrow .

I think your reasons would be:

• CAMHS aren't experts on these issues in a child, FF are
• So CAMHS can't actually provide the same service as FF
• Especially since FF will undoubtedly have a greater number of assessment procedures at their disposal than CAMHS, and can do several assessments (whether psychiatric, sensory, developmental etc) without the delays you would experience at CAMHS, where they do one thing, then wat, then do another, thenm aybe wait some more months. You can't afford those delays in your current situation.
• You've lost faith in the CAMHS process, as it hasn't helped so far
• You are in a very serious situation beyond what most families may experience, you need the most experienced and comphrehensive service

• FF/PAC have the experience of working with the parents as well, providing parental support as an inegral part of the process. In my experience, CAMHS just aren't good at it. You've already felt more understood by the FF person on the phone than any of the other professionals, right?

FF have more treatment/therapy options available as well.

I think one of the reasons that I am being too nice is that this situation has become my "normality". I am so used to it, and to coping with it all on my own that I feel like I'm making a fuss. It shocks me that other adopters like yourselves, are shocked because to me, this is what adoption is. This is my experience of it.

I think I'm finding it hard to adjust to the view that DD is very far from normal because I am so used to her, if that makes sense. Also, when I was shocked by her behaviour at the age of six, (attempted suicide etc) Camhs didn't really react to it very much and didn't do anything apart from chat to me occasionally so I assumed that my shock was an over reaction.

I remember being similarly taken aback when the AE saw DD and went "how do you cope????" I replied "day by day" and they replied "I imagine it's more minute by minute!" Which was true. But I was surprised that they were shocked by DD, especially as they specialise in traumatised children. I thought "gosh, is she that bad?"

She took a bowl of porridge to school on Monday, in her bag. Not surprisingly it leaked everywhere and ruined her homework. I left it for her dad to sort out. These little quirky things and odd behaviours create a lot of added stress. You're leaving the house with three kids in the morning and you discover a bag of congealed porridge. It just adds to the sense of chaos that surrounds DD.

I understand that. The first time someone suggested I make plans for my DD to move out, I was shocked and got very defensive, because yes her behaviour had escalated but it had been that way before, I was (just) coping, it was normal, just how it is, and we would fight through like always etc. Your DD's behaviour is 'normal' for children in her position, but not for other children. I wouldn't say I'm really shocked by what you've posted...angry on your behalf that you've been so badly let down by services definitely. But it IS unusally serious to have a child aged 6-8 making a suicide attempt and trying to kill a sibling, it really is. I wonder if CAMHS actually took it seriously or not, did they think she wouldn't have gone through with it?

But her behaviour and emotional state are going to really impact in her teenage and adult years, as she starts to be expected to function a lot more independently. So if there's anything that can be done now, it needs to be done as soon as possible. I think (I don't have any evidence in front of me) that interventions for children like DD tend to become less effective the older the child gets.

The problem is that services take 'niceness' as an excuse to push you into things that aren't right. They have an agenda, so you have to have an agenda as well, and push politely and very firmly for it. One of the things on your agenda tomorrow will be to push for funding for an FF/PAC assessment, and you have to shove aside your feelings that it's normal and resist any urges to agree to less or something you don't feel will help.

Rain I'm about as much use advising you are your proverbial chocolate teapot but am offering sympathy at least!

I do (at a different level) understand what you mean by this this situation has become my "normality". Whilst DS does not have anything like the issues your DD has, I was startled to see the EP and the inclusion manager and his TA wincing when I was describing his current "dreams" and his fears as they seem not too bad to me now that I'm used to them.

The inclusion manager was trying to describe to EP how DS over-reacts to things which upset him and said she couldn't quite put it into words and hadn't come across it before and I just said "primal". The think which seemed to startle them the most was how matter of fact I was about it.

Now you are dealing with way more significant stuff but I can imagine that if it is your day to day life almost anything can become normalised. I think CAHMS have done you no favours allowing that perception to continue.