Should struggling universities be supported or allowed to fail?

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3p93j3823o

25 universities are at risk of bankruptcy. What is the answer here? Should they be supported by the government to keep going? Should they be allowed to fail and the whole university sector be restructured?

I feel like we will end up with only mega universities offering popular courses, and the smaller universities with more niche subjects will disappear. This seems to go against everything that academia should be about, and feels like we will end up with just corporate academia left.

What is the purpose of universities? It looks more and more like it is to make money, not to create knowledgeable skilled students, and to extend our understanding of the world. How did we get here?

The idea of Micky mouse degrees and university being a waste of time or money isn’t new, it’s been around as long as university has been accessible to poor people.

im sure you’re aware there is a plethora of data supporting the wealth that is gained at a population level from any degree and importable, that it beings the creation of generational wealth - to people that would never have had it any other way.

there are too many universities. This is related to the decline in the population of British 18 year olds and overseas students who have propped up the sector for many years.

however to suggest it’s related to people doing degrees who shouldn’t, is incorrect.

what I do think is ridiculous is having social workers, midwives, nurses etc coming out of university with debt + interests to fulfill public service roles that pay £30k PA so they will clearly not repay.

and that’s from a finance director earning shit loads with a BCD and a degree from university of east London 🤨 now predominately working supporting elite and low tariff universities sort out their finances 😆

Okay, so everyone saying 'Noooooo universities must not be allowed to fail' or similar, what is the solution? Should they be bailed out by the taxpayer to the tune of billions of pounds (that, let's face it, the govt doesn't have right now) and allowed to continue to exist, just because they already exist and they are part of the greater good? Or should there be another solution and, if so, what?

Who said that?

There are plenty of posters on this thread arguing that universities should not be allowed to fail and we know there are lots that are in financial dire straits. So what is the solution?

The reason I’m asking is I don’t think anyone has said that on this thread

This - we need to reinstate the idea of the craftsperson, the artisan, the guild member, as a respected and vital professional position in society. Practical and experiential knowledge is the future. I say this as someone who has multiple degrees and now works on the forefront of AI - if i was 18 today, I’d be learning something tactile and real-world. Not only is it likely to be of more use career-wise in the short to mid term as AI transforms work, it’s also incredibly good for mental health and personal satisfaction to make or repair something tangible, and young people (indeed, all people) are going to need this sense of inherent worth and skill as we move towards an uncertain world of possible UBI etc.

The point is we don’t need those skills think do we? They have mainly been automated

Like i said earlier, re look at courses offered but the Govt has to step in, there is no choice, we can't go back to 5% of school leavers going to Uni and the rest into factories, construction etc etc.

An educated workforce (in the right areas) has never been more vital if we are ever to progress.

The higher education sector does need to shrink and restructure but as PPs have said, I have no idea how it should be done methodically.

Theoretically the lack of graduate jobs would now start to reduce university numbers because why take on all that debt for no gain. Then those universities struggling to attract students could be phased out.

However, the problem is that the jobs are not there at 18 either so it becomes a step to kick the can down the road.

And in fact it seems that higher education is rather expanding due to the rise of the panic masters. I have no figures so this is anecdata but so many of my DD’s cohort and friends kids are doing masters they had no intention of doing.

Universities are also overly reliant on foreign students. These students are then eligible to work in the Uk and apply for grad programmes for 18 months after graduation (it used to be longer) without the need for sponsorship. This means that there is additional competition for grad programmes as these roles can then be converted to work visas. In theory this is to retain the top talent but the numbers are too large. I stumbled across a forum where foreign students were bemoaning how difficult it is to find work in the UK and how they felt shortchanged - I understood how they felt as they’d paid far more for their degrees and been sold a dream - but the way they were talking they certainly weren’t top talent. Again this is anecdata but it’s all a big mess.

They also fill a huge need, my DD got her NHS related degree in one and is now working in the NHS... what should she do otherwise?

Go to one of the many other unis? Not being glib. Across all the viewpoints, almost everyone here agrees there's an issue with over-expansion. There will still be enough places to fill the pipeline. Currently there's too many and it's not sustainable.

universities are also quite impacted by “black spots” - areas where there are few of certain types of role. There is somewhat of a crisis with vet nursing, for example, at the moment, there are whole swathes of the country were there are very few. You can’t just have a university in any location for vocational roles

Sure but you can't keep a failing uni open to ease vet nursing black spots. Those issues need solutions but they're not deciding factors in the big picture.

It’s nuanced and black and white views like that don’t add anything .

there are many things to consider when we consider whether we should support a failing university or let them fail. Location is a strong one

No doubt. But my original point re. the poster asking where her DD would go if the local uni closed still stands. There is no shortage of unis, quite the opposite. And to your point, there may be blackspots for particular courses, but the UK is not a large country and there are a lot of unis with most counties well served. Where particular courses are run can be managed across fewer unis, just as (in)effectively as its being managed across the many that there currently are.

The question on this thread has been should we let struggling universities fail and the implied response has been yes because the lower tariff institutions are giving out mickey mouse degrees. That is my understanding.

When we push back on this narrative, we are not advocating for a free for all or the status quo we are saying three things. First, that it is not only lower tariff universities that are struggling financially. Second, that low tariff does not automatically equal low quality student and third, that the structure of our whole country's tertiary education system should not be determined at an individual institution level.

There are many things wrong with the current system for many different reasons. That does not mean that the solution is to let individual institutions fail with no coherent plan.

I would like to see all VCs come together and work together on a solution but the sort of academic snobbery that is on display on this thread is exactly why we will not. The bonfire of the universities will be brought about by scrabbling infighting which is incredibly destructive and profoundly unacademic.

I think the tuition fees debacle suggests you will be correct, @MassiveTit

For example, I have a colleague who sits on government committees because of her expertise. It is considered part of her academic service so the institution pays her salary.

Universities are bigger than just the return in investment for a single person. That is why we need a national conversation which avoids hyperbole. Actually we needed one a long time before now.

But this Uni is tied to the local district teaching hospital and we need HCPs across all disciplines, this Uni also works alongside a Naval dockyard, so yes, lets close it down.....

Cutting HE just at a time when we face AI and need a far higher and better educated workforce would be a terrible mistake

Other countries manage to fund a similar % of its young people going to Uni, without requiring huge tuition fees or huge numbers of foreign students.

As handcrafted things become rarer, people will value them more - look at the 19th century arts and crafts movement as a reaction to the industrial revolution.

Allowed to fail if not profit worthy. Same as with any other business. The state can't properly up failing businesses.

@Alexandra2001 A lot of universities abroad don’t have accommodation and have huge classes. It’s a different product. France has small elite universities but elsewhere many students commute. It’s a different model.

Yep, agree. Many countries in Europe operate what I call a "no frills" university system. I studied in one of those countries and content-wise I don't think there's much difference on average with what you'd get in the UK, perhaps with the exception of some extremely research-led places. The difference is that it's completely up to you to go to lectures and avail yourself of the library or similar resources to study for the final exam. There's no monitoring of attendance, no chasing up assignments (you just fail if you don't turn up to the exams), no wellbeing checks, no to very limited support with study skills, no formative assignments, minimal advising. This is of course not ideal to students who are intelligent enough to follow the course but might lack a certain maturity or motivation. On the other hand, I think the UK system encourages learned helplessness in many cases.

@aridapricot That sounds like uni here only 15 years ago! No show, no mark! My DD spent a semester in Italy - not much chasing done there. Her BF did his year abroad in a grande Ecole. They work students hard! He had a uniform too!

I’m sorry but that is offensive. I work in a non RG 1960s university in a school that is very successful in research. Multiple ERC and UKRI grants, some faculty are extremely highly cited. We publish in top journals and our school is 10th in the REF. It’s not true at all that non RG research is low quality.

I don't think that person really is an academic? I never really notice where the paper I'm citing is from, unless I know the authors personally. The idea I would notice it is from Liverpool not Bath is unlikely