Should struggling universities be supported or allowed to fail?

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3p93j3823o

25 universities are at risk of bankruptcy. What is the answer here? Should they be supported by the government to keep going? Should they be allowed to fail and the whole university sector be restructured?

I feel like we will end up with only mega universities offering popular courses, and the smaller universities with more niche subjects will disappear. This seems to go against everything that academia should be about, and feels like we will end up with just corporate academia left.

What is the purpose of universities? It looks more and more like it is to make money, not to create knowledgeable skilled students, and to extend our understanding of the world. How did we get here?

Controversial opinion - yes they should be allowed to fail. I was reading in the Guardian about the number of international students offered high cost places on low value courses, being offered jobs they’ll never get, equating basically to people trafficking. It’s a real contributor to the immigration numbers that’s riling the country up as well. If it’s an institution not producing good quality research, and is reliant on the steady flow of immigrant students, then they should reduce their offerings.

I work in academia and I don’t think I ever cite research from non Russel Group authors (or similar calibre but outside RG), because the quality of research isn’t as good and it doesn’t end up in good quality journals.

only controversial if you haven't read the thread

I think part of the problem is the as UKRI funding has become more competitive there’s a bigger focus on philanthropy and foundations. It’s hard to persuade them often to pay FEC/overheads - so while UKRI covers most of the overheads (up to 80% I believe), the loss is coming from having to charge limited overheads to philanthropies to keep them interested.

yes, that's true. We are being steered away from charity funding entirely now.

They should be supported; they are an asset to the nation, and running them like a corner shop is short-sighted and foolish. See also water companies, railways, hospitals, and schools. All should be owned by the nation.

Who pays for the microscope to be replaced though? Capital depreciation isn’t just a line in the accounts - replacement costs have to come from somewhere! I imagine that your specific overhead includes the nitrogen because your research grants office has calculated an amount to cover the whole dept/faculty costs, rather than calculating them individually for each individual grant - which would need another couple of staff members!

Of course you won’t be sacked despite your grants not covering everything - most unis, even the teaching intensive ones, see the non-financial value of research (informing teaching, attracting staff, keeping staff, league table position, collaborating etc - it’s what academic do!) and don’t want to lose it even though it piles more pressure on the bottom line.

the microscope was bought by a grant! We don't even get a laptop if we don't have grant income.

Yeah right you work in HE, sure... ...But I guess you mean Russell Group. Makes a lot of sense. Totally lines up with REF rankings (not!)

“It’s a real contributor to the immigration numbers that’s riling the country up as well”

Not anymore it’s not 😭

Honestly the “accountants” I’ve encountered
in HE have been poorer quality then I could ever imagine. I don’t believe they have the first clue what’s loss making and what isn’t.

besides which grant / project accounting is a made up art not reflecting any sort of reality. And the admin behind it is hugely expensive and ineffective

Eh?

I’ve worked as a researcher for the last 10years tyvm!

Demoralisation a big issue too.
high staff turnover over, no continuity in project oversight. Complex approval systems. All adds time and burden.

Oops sorry it didn't click that this was the HE staffroom. It came up in trending.

Yes I’m seeing this.

my local college only offers GCSE biology and chemistry to adult learners but our local workforce is mostly marine and defence then NHS.

there aren’t any engineering/marine/defence related courses for adults learners beyond welding despite the college claiming it’s a speciality college for engineering.

yes there is a nationwide shortage of welders so that makes sense but welders don’t just work alone. They need fabricators (also a shortage) and machinists with understanding of maths, esp geometry and an understanding of metallurgy.

how can eg my kiddo who has adhd and asd who crashed and burned at GCSE due to diagnostic failures restart and get into an engineering field? He can’t. He’s shut out like so many 1000s of kids and is grasping at a particular pathway inc level 4 course at college instead of uni that won’t actually lead to a job. This here is where there’s a failing.

im lucky that I can self teach the necessary skills and will hire tutors when required (best mate is a maths tutor up to alevel, mostly works with kids though) because im determined to do well In my field and im actually considering, after the apprenticeship and gaining industry experience, becoming a trainer in that field.

so so many people aren’t. They don’t have the resources of connections

it has to change. We’re shooting ourselves in the foot by not having well educated specialists.

Merger will be the answer, and many are all
ready in talks.

That remains to be seen. Putting 2 failing universities (or, if you’re lucky, one failing one successful) together doesn’t bring the synergies you might expect.

I’m waiting to see how the merger between Kent and Greenwich goes. I suspect not smoothly.

I am really surprised that someone rarely cites works from non RG universities.

As I said on another thread I am at a low tariff university and I have a large UKRI grant, coordinate a pan-European research network in my area, have an APA award and just had a paper in Nature. Yes, I have some colleagues who coast but I have seen far more of that in the RG universities I interact with.

I simply don't understand how you read or engage with the literature in your field? What about non UK researchers - do you know how their institutions rank? I understand some field are more resource intensive but I find the lack of a critical stance worrying and the ranking of research by institution concerning.

Please can we practice what we preach and use critical evaluation, nuance and sense of the bigger picture when we are discussing these things? It is our job to actually think carefully.

I believe research led teaching is important because (at its best) it helps students to understand the basis for how we can work on the frontiers of the not knowing but still do so without an anything goes attitude. That is really important. It isn't the same as text book teaching.

It may be that we as a country decide that fewer people need those particular set of skills. This is a conversation that should be had not at the level of the institutions but on a more holistic scale. However, let us be very clear, the reason why most people end up as students or academics in the institutions they do is not because we have a wonderful filtering system at 18 or post PhD which can reliably sort people by their intellectual worth or capacity to contribute but is to a large extent down to luck.

Too many average people getting degrees that they mean nothing now. It used to be just for the academic.

What does this even mean? If you can achieve a degree and are happy to pay for it what’s the problem?

”used to be for academics” is bullshit. It used to be for rich people. It’s class mobility that’s has got us to the point where those average (read: poor) people can achieve degrees

and of course, an undergrad degree hasn’t ever been quite the level of academics and difficulty you seem to imagine.

Totally agree. I think this is an extension of the poor quality of staff generally at universities- you can have a prof services worker at a RG university who knows nothing else about the education system but is willing to spout off continuously

kent has already been rescued from bankruptcy at least twice, and hasn’t been able to recover either time. I don’t know what Greenwich expect to do to change that and sharing professional services isn’t the saviour of a failing university.

@Wishing14 DH was head of a University dept till last year. He had been saying for the last couple of years how he would like to have changed to exam and presentation with Q&A sessions overall for assessment and projects only where absolutely necessary.

Am I the only MNer who likes sources?

23% of the student population is overseas students. Numbers of EU origin students have fallen in recent years while non-EU student count in 2022 was about 2.5x more than the total in 2003/4. Risen yes, is doubling over 20 years that steep a rise? Source = 2025 Parliamentary report.

In current academic year, 25/26, overseas student counts are down from 23-25, especially of Chinese origin, although there was increase from USA: ResProfNews.

Studying first degrees, UCL leads with largest % overseas students, 49%. In the complete Uni Guide league table, number 20 is at 19%. So although 23% might be "average", I'm guessing median is about 13%. Could be a lot lower. PG courses are much higher %s; comprising mostly Masters students who in UK are here for a year and then gone, typically.

Is 13% the defintion of "huge" ?

Some of you can knock yourselves out keep making shit up.

@BackedoffhackedoffTheres a growing number of people thinking degrees are not worth it. British Social Attitudes survey today. The poor people have the biggest loans and then complain the most. I’ve no doubt degrees did help people get better jobs and out earn others without degrees but grad unemployment is now real (Milburn Report) and this fuels the expense vs value debate.

Clearly some degrees are poor value for money and paying over 40 years without any perceived advantage, will be persuading parents and dc to swerve the expense.

Over expansion has killed the product. Most people know some degrees are poor and some universities should definitely merge and offer an alternative product. We have expensive halls of residence and we expect parents to pay a lot for these. In the meantime, salaries haven’t increased at the same rate as university costs.

The big challenged is what to do with the CCC type student. Apprenticeships can be very difficult to find and employers are taxed on jobs making young employees less attractive. There should, though, be fewer universities and more courses for work and trades based in local colleges. These are grossly under funded and our vast debt on student loans needs to be reeled in. Universities have been a gravy train for too many.