Week 3 and the 1st years are asking if they have to come to lectures, they’d rather watch the recordings

[CameForAVacationStayedForTheRevolution]

🙈🙈🙈🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

OMG, and during lock down students (and the majority of parents on MN) complained about online lectures and poor value for money due to lack of face to face on campus lectures. Lots of complaints after lockdown when it was a bit of a hybrid model for a year.

And now here we are with some students saying they’d rather not drive into town for lectures when they could watch them from home. Bearing in mind on our course our “lectures” are more of a lecture/seminar hybrid as it’s a small cohort so it’s not death by PowerPoint. There are group activities, etc, interactive stuff, quizes, etc. Trying to explain to them that discussion occurs at a better level when people are actually there in person as well! People are more likely to ask questions when not online.

Honestly, I’m baffled sometimes! I get it would save money in petrol and parking as well as less time if you don’t have to commute in but I never press ganged anyone to sign up for the course!

Something I've seen creeping in the last few years, and again not sure where it comes from, is this idea that if someone is "intellectually capable" of completing a degree, then it is their prerogative to do so and they are entitled to unlimited time from staff in the pursuit of their goal. Sorry - if you cannot leave your bedroom or open a book due to severe depression, then I don't think you are in a position to complete a degree just now, no matter how intellectually capable you are.

This 100% See my experience above about a parent demanding that we keep a student in our degree even though the student wasn't actually doing the work.

I agree with you entirely. I have had to learn to challenge myself over my years of studying. I wanted it badly enough that I pushed myself and asked when I required additional support. At one point I had to attend lectures between 18:00-20:00 on a Tuesday arriving home at 21:00. Then returning for 09:00 Wednesday morning, fortunately it was 1 trimester. I have complex health needs that includes fatigue. However I determined and wanted to achieve badly enough I worked with what was available. I then was able to space out the written elements of the course over the following year. It meant my MA took 2 years instead of 1 however it was worth it. I know that to achieve a doctorate I need to give presentations and attend a Viva. Will I find that difficult yes, will it make me anxious yes. However once again I want it enough to engage with the support offered to achieve the desired outcome.

I think it really depends on the content of the lectures. On my last course many people complained and wanted to have some more stuff online. But that was because about 3 lecturers would actually give an interesting and useful class and the majority just read off the lecture slides word for word… and the schedule meant we were in every day for either just a couple of hours or a morning lecture and evening lecture with nothing in between. For most healthcare students they are also working and can’t afford to waste a whole day for nothing.

And your experience @Wasitabadger demonstrates also that nothing worthwhile comes without hard work, and doing hard things: meeting difficult stuff head on.

Before I went to university (and really, until I was about 25) I was very very shy. So shy that I found asking for a bus far, or asking for something in a shop really difficult. Impossible actually, until I was about 19 or 20. But I wanted to live in a big city, I wanted to go to university, I wanted to be an academic.

So I got over my pathological shyness. I suspect nowadays, I'd be excused everything on the grounds of "social anxiety." It wouldn't have helped me. I needed to work through it and develop strategies, and talk to bus drivers!

We have TWO full time wellbeing advisors which would be lovely if they actually reduced our workload and actively helped students but they mostly just signpost them to other services, none of the students I talked to found them helpful. Just window dressing.

TWO???

When you could have 2 lecturers, brining in research money, writing stuff for the REF, and actually TEACHING the students ...

Precisely, I am ok in small groups which being at doctoral level has fortunately. I was attending a course run by a fellow course mate. This course had around 30 people in it quite a change from the usual group of 5. I think he was surprised at how I found it more of a challenge to speak up without stuttering and having to sit on my hands to not stim. In my autism assessment my husband commented she cannot ask for simple things from strangers or go to the supermarket. Yet ask her about her specialist subjects her speech is passionate and fluent. I am not outing myself however I am a true example of the correct support meaning you can achieve. However, I pride myself on my determination that I achieved with support and I put the work in to be awarded those grades. It has not nor will not be handed to me because I tick a diversity box. Unfortunately, I am aware there are those who think otherwise and the attitudes of some individuals that are disabled and enabled by others is that they are entitled to have their demands met. That is not what equality and equity is meant to be.

I'm very sympathetic towards students with any sort of disability/learning plan. I'm disabled. My DS is disabled, physically as well as having ADHD and autism.

He had a nervous breakdown mid Year One as couldn't cope with university. I would still never have expected his personal tutor to make contact with him every week to see how he was doing. I told DS if he needed help and support he had to ask for it. Which he didn't do and buried and failed Year One and had to resit. And I still wouldn't have expected or even asked for a weekly check in for him.

Tbf we have like 800 students! But if all youre going to do is signpost people, we can create an AI tool for that.

It's frustrating when so many things the students are dealing with are not anything we can do anything about, cost of living, lack of jobs, harassment and abuse off campus.... I do feel terrible for our students but there's only so much we can do.

This is why I’m so glad I’ve left academia. As if we have time for chit-chat. Whilst I wanted my students to be safe and happy in an abstract way, I did not feel it was my duty to ensure this. I was there to teach, not to be a social worker or a friend.

DS1 is autistic, will go to university next year after a gap year. I too will not be expecting any tutors to check in with him every week. I will support him to self advocate and access extra help if he needs it. I'm there as scaffolding, not to do things for him, or demand that everyone else turns the world on its axis so he can get a degree.

IME it's also not harmful, particularly for ND young people, to wait and start uni a little later and give them that extra time to recover from the demands of compulsory schooling and a break from the pressure of coursework and exams. DS1's first choice was an English uni, which will cost us more as we are resident in Scotland (though he was at sixth form over the border). The choice we gave him was go straight away to a Scottish uni or take a gap year, work and save (and allow us to save a bit) and go to the one he really wanted. I'm not displeased that he made the latter choice, as working is really helping his confidence with in person social interactions, and I have a feeling he will fare better at uni as a result.

I've just been thinking about the differences between school teaching and lecturing.

They're different professions - different objectives, different conditions.

Teachers get security with their first permanent job, and tend to land a permanent job within a few years of a PGCE if they want one. The pension is excellent.

It took me a PhD and 7 years to get my first permanent post - I was in my late 30s by then. The pension has been decimated.

The typical personal tutor is a junior or temporary lecturer, working long hours in the hope of a permanent post or to pass probation/get a first big grant/first promotion.

A high proportion won't make it, and are then replaced by similar inexperienced young temporary lecturers. They're often brilliant at going the extra mile for students. But this will not help them get the security they deserve, and they know this.

In some cases, temporary lecturers are appointed in September once Clearing numbers are known, with no time to prepare.

The difference in the professions is like the difference between PE teaching and being a professional athlete. They're in the same world, but different parts.

There's definitely a lot that academia could learn from school teaching - but individual academics are held accountable for their productivity. The 'permanent or out' system is ruthless. Within schools, it is heads rather than individual teachers who are publicly accountable for school performance. It's much tougher to manage poor teachers out once they have a permanent job - and much more common to have a permanent post. That's not always ideal for students, but it's undoubtedly better for staff. These are very different conditions.

I'm finding this thread really depressing.

I feel that parents and schools/6th form colleges don't prepare our young people enough for independent living and study.

It seems like many parents think that university is an extension of school. I have rejoined the WIWIKAU Facebook page and there are still parents enquiring about half term at university and not teaching their DC how to cook, clean a kitchen or use a washing machine.

Clearly there are more students now who do need extra help, but there are too many young people who should be perfectly capable of carrying out these life skills who can't (or won't).

At the end of the day you are a business providing a service students are paying for. It's up to them the level of accessibility they want to be able to access just like any other business, universities need to adapt to stay alive.

If this is the case, then the universities do need to adapt and resource it properly instead of expecting academic staff to become therapists and foster parents on top of teaching and getting research income.

Universities are at this rate just going to become finishing schools, they won't be academic places of learning any more.

@Nn9011 Exactly, they're paying for a service. The service is what it is. Certain adaptations can be made but there's a limit.
If you pay for a series of driving lessons you're paying to be taught a set of skills and a body of knowledge. Some people will need an adapted car, others will need glasses and that's fine but not everybody can or should drive. For blind and some visually impaired people it's a non starter. For people with epilepsy they may have to wait a while until they can prove they're ready. Other people may be too anxious or on medication and will need to resolve their issues before starting to learn to drive.
It's not up to us to sort everything out and meet every need because that is an unreasonable and frequently unachievable expectation.

I had three hour lectures during my degree at a former polytechnic.

We have the Government saying that ASD/ADHD/OCD and 'mental illness' isn't a good reason not to work. Then we have universities saying that if your ASD/ADHD/OCD or 'mental ill health' means that you need more support than other students, you shouldn't be doing the course.

And employers don't want you if you are disabled. If you are disabled, you can't win.

I don't think you are in a position to complete a degree just now

It needs to be more acceptable to stack shelves at Tesco for a few years between A-levels and degree whilst you get mentally well or, in the case of neurodivergence, build interpersonal skills and planning ability. I flunked out of my first year, went back to study a different programme four years later and now work as a technician. I should have taken the time out from the outset, but the standard pipeline of all my peers was "sixth form, uni" and other options weren't discussed anywhere.

I wondered if I could ask a question on this thread, as my DS is in a similar situation to @ArseInTheCoOpWindow's DD, but several years behind.

DS really doesn't want to go to university because he knows he couldn't handle the environment, but he is very very bright. He's currently blazing through A level Computer Science at age 15.

I have often looked the Open University and wondered if that might be a good route for him.

I just wondered - if so many of you in unversities are struggling with SEND kids and people not showing up to class, might there be an argument for providing more Higher Education options that are like the Open University?

We would be looking at computer science, so very much something that can be done on a computer at home.

Thanks.

btw @ArseInTheCoOpWindow I'm sorry your DD is having a hard time. I remember you talking about her from some years back, and it's so clear from your posts how much you dote on her and how valued she is. I'm sorry that you are getting such harsh messages on here.

From my side of things, I used to be an academic, but the pay and conditions were just dreadful, and I had to leave to become a coder. I couldn't afford stable accommodation even in a bedsit room, and was having to choose between clothes and food. I also developed health problems that the NHS wouldn't touch but which were trivially fixable with private health care. I really have a great respect for people who've manage to keep ploughing on in the universities. I absolutely couldn't have done it.

@TryingToFigureItOut2 would staying at home but going to a local uni be an option? Alternatively if he’s good at computer science type stuff could he get a job without a degree? A friend of ds’s did this, he taught himself to code and applied for jobs. Passed tech tests with flying colours and landed himself a 40k job at 18yo.

@CameForAVacationStayedForTheRevolution Going straight to a job is what he would like to do. Might it be possible for you to tell me what he did to get there? The city we live in is absolutely stacked with coding jobs, so I think this is a real possibility for DS.

He's very keen to do A level computer science and is bracing himself of A level maths.

We don't have a local university that he could commute to, which is a definite problem. I mean we have one but not the sort that is easy to get into. I commuted to university and it was much easier.

@TryingToFigureItOut2 he signed up with recruiting type agencies which specialised in coding type jobs. I’m not in touch with him anymore unfortunately so can’t recommend any specific ones. Then just applied for jobs they recommended. Front end and back end developer jobs ring a bell. Most applications had some sort of coding test as part of the recruitment process and he did well in those and was offered a job. He did it for about a year and then set his own company up doing something techy and seems to be doing very well.

to teach himself coding he watched YouTube videos

@TryingToFigureItOut2

Yes, I think it would be a great thing if there were more flexible, online learning options for young adults like your DS. It also needs parents and employers to value it the same though. There's definitely a bit of snobbery out there about not doing "proper" university, which there shouldn't be. OU can be brilliant, and a fantastic option for young adults who would struggle with attending campus as well as mature students.

There will always be courses that can't be offered in this way - I'm in healthcare, and although some things can be done online, a lot of it depends on developing patient facing skills, so sadly, those types of courses just aren't realistic for young people who are not able to attend a campus and learn in person with peers. But there are lots of subjects where distance learning can and does work really well.

Possibly an apprenticeship might offer a chance to learn while earning and he'd be doing more hands on stuff? Some of the learning, depending on the programme, might be online or at least blended, if it's tech. You could look into tech apprenticeship options with him.

https://www.herts.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/bsc-hons-computer-science-online

@TryingToFigureItOut2 Several universities have online BSc degrees

In general there are more and more online BA degrees, they need to be publicised more