Week 3 and the 1st years are asking if they have to come to lectures, they’d rather watch the recordings

[CameForAVacationStayedForTheRevolution]

🙈🙈🙈🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

OMG, and during lock down students (and the majority of parents on MN) complained about online lectures and poor value for money due to lack of face to face on campus lectures. Lots of complaints after lockdown when it was a bit of a hybrid model for a year.

And now here we are with some students saying they’d rather not drive into town for lectures when they could watch them from home. Bearing in mind on our course our “lectures” are more of a lecture/seminar hybrid as it’s a small cohort so it’s not death by PowerPoint. There are group activities, etc, interactive stuff, quizes, etc. Trying to explain to them that discussion occurs at a better level when people are actually there in person as well! People are more likely to ask questions when not online.

Honestly, I’m baffled sometimes! I get it would save money in petrol and parking as well as less time if you don’t have to commute in but I never press ganged anyone to sign up for the course!

One student cried through every lecture..... They cannot cope and it's not fair.

Not fair on the other students in the lecture either.

I agree that university is not the right place for some of these young people. But there are alternatives such as the OU, and other universities also offer online courses, for those who cannot handle face to face study.

I also agree that degrees are becoming so dumbed down as to be worthless. There doesn't seem to be any sense that students should be challenged, or should challenge themselves.

Quite simply - some young adults are pushed beyond their capabilities and resources (mental/emotional) to be in demanding educational environments (medicine/law/etc) that they cannot cope with. As a parent, I ofcourse understand the need and motivation to advocate for them. However, you are doing your children no favors.

I have students that never finish their degrees/doctorates because they just don't have the analytical heft and work ethic to do it, and the minute they hit road blocks they start searching for reasons and they land on anxieties/mental health - anything to avoid the cold hard truth that they do not have the capacity to do it. This is incredibly frustrating as an academic as places in top universities are hard fought for, and for every person you admit there are many deserving students you don't. To see young adults struggle for years in a situation they do not have the capacity to step up to, is challenging and counter productive to their mental health. Being a HE academic has completely changed my parenting strategy - I don't parent for 'success', I parent for resilience, to be okay with losing and failing as that is going to happen to all of us at some stage in our life. I see far too many fragile young adults in my line of work, and I worry for them (and their employers) when they hit the world of work.

Yes the increasing levels of fragility and lack of resilience is a big concern. My heart sinks every August as I get email after email regarding different students with varying levels of anxiety and panic attacks.

The course I teach on is notoriously tough mentally and emotionally, if people don’t have mental health issues when they start they often will by the end (for reasons out of my control), and I really worry about those that are already struggling before they start.

I don’t know why they bother in education. No-one is going to employ them with that carry on.

Yes, exactly. So, I do wonder why they apply for these courses - wouldn't life be easier and less taxing for them if they didn't choose a 'pressure cooker' course? I chose a career that I felt emotionally and intellectually capable of. I do wonder if some (not all) of the young adults of today have so so many decisions made for them, and are told that they can do anything at all, that they just don't have the self-awareness to make the right choices for themselves?

I think for me some of it came down to the difference between providing reasonable adjustments so that students with disabilities have equality of opportunity, and propping up students who were not fit to study.

From my perspective, it can feel as if it is the students with disabilities who are in fact the most disadvantaged by the overwhelming demands put on universities by students who are not fit to study.

Attitudes harden, as all students requesting accommodations are tarred with the same brush. Scarce resources of time, attention and support are either spread too thinly to be of help, or put behind mountainous hurdles of bureaucracy in order to ration them. These things disproportionately disadvantage those of the disabled who could succeed - and who in the recent past might well have been helped to do so.

As I am sure is the case with many here, over the years I've done my fair share of pastoral-facing roles. More than a few times, and increasingly so in the last few years, I have encountered cases where it was obvious the student was not in a position to study full-time - I'm talking about being unable to concentrate enough to do coursework for months at a time, or having serious memory issues.

I really cannot for the life of me comprehend what's the kind of culture that has persuaded these young people that it is preferable to plough through and endure high levels of stress and suffering, rather than take time off to get better and complete the degree at a later time. Even the suggestion of going part-time to alleviate some of the stress was often met with horror.

Also, apart from enduring high levels of stress and suffering themselves, this decision often leads to stress and frustration for others - in one case, I had to offer a student a number of hours of one one-to-one tuition comparable to the number of hours that I'd spent lecturing to the whole class, just so that they were not "disadvantaged". This was of course not something that was accounted for in my workload. Being in a male-dominated department, of course most of the male lecturers would brag about how kind and compassionate my department was for offering support like that, while of course it was the few women like me who paid the price for the kindness and compassion.

I agree that some adjustments veer into unreasonable. But I'm not sure how much thought goes into the usefulness of assessments. For example, what newly graduated physicist is going to present to 350 people? I find that highly unlikely, so why would it be necessary in year 2 of a degree course? Why give student nurses a closed book drug assessment, when in reality they would refer to the BNF or hospital formulary if they were unsure of a dosage? Examinations often don't test the application of knowledge, they test memory and recall. Coders regularly Google strings of code - they don't need to remember it all. They need to know what they need, how to get it, and how to use it.

There will be jobs where a disability is a disqualifier for a certain role, but I don't think it's straightforward.

Thank you. This is basically all she needs. We haven’t had the DSA appt yet.

Like she’s going to over share to her tutor about her personal life🙄

Shes a determined young woman who has fought hard to get her place. She is entirely capable both academically and socially. She just has one issue about approaching people.
Just one.

Yet according to people on here she’s not fit for university. The university will cover itself in glory however if she gets the first she’s more than capable of. Particularly so as she had an EHCP at school. She’s very very clever.

She’s not mentally unwell, she has a learning disability. She has done counselling to death and it’s pretty useless for her.

I used to teach A level. Kids were often in tears. It was just part of the job. As was helping them. 3 months later they go to uni. Same kids. They manage.

She doesn’t want therapy. And definitely not from anyone on here!

She’s on her way out of burnout.

She wants ONE 2 minute check in a week. Just one. Not that she’s going to get it judging by the comments on here.

I taught 500 kids week as a teacher. And deal with and remember all their SEND issues.

Students have a right to attend university if they want. ‘Frail’ or otherwise. This thread seems more about eugenics than anything else. Young people change and more importantly grow up. They aren’t all at the same level of emotional development at 18.

Mine wants to go to university. It’s all she ever wanted. We never pushed her. And she seems to have landed in some eugenics based superior race set up judging by the comments on here.

If she is on the way to recovery, why not wait until she is recovered? She will have a much better experience at university. Instead, you feel entitled to demand that a stranger offers levels of support that he is not contracted to offer. That "check in" was 1 minute a few posts ago, now it's 2 minutes, and as others have pointed out, it will be longer than that if any issues are present at all. Also you seem under the impression that "teacher" and "university lecturer" share a job description, which they do not.

They both teach young people. With an age difference of 3 months. Both are educators yes?

She wouldn’t wait.

So you are saying there is no verbal contact between lecturers and students? No one can ask for even two minutes ( or even one minute) of their time.

Not on a proactive basis like that no. I tell my students help is available but they have to ask for that help/say there’s an issue, that can be via email. I am not ringing/emailing my students to ask if they’re ok. Though I would if I thought someone had seemed upset/unusually quiet in class or had missed a few sessions.

One teaches children, the other teaches adults. It may only be 3 months difference but the expectations are very different. That adult learners take responsibility for their learning and their needs. You may find with this shift in expectations that actually she manages better than expected.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow university isn't a right.

Don't be so bloody ridiculous about eugenics. You've had several people here who are ourselves neurodivergent and/or disabled and working in the sector telling you that your expectations of university staff, and for your child at this point in time, are unfair. Nobody is telling you your child shouldn't study ever, people are saying that it would be more appropriate when she is further down the road to full recovery and does not need a level of support at university that is unrealistic. We all know that weekly check in will not be 1-2 minutes. That time will have gone past already by the time she's opened the door, walked in, taken her coat off, sat down and done the pleasantries. If she does have periods of being unable to communicate verbally (as I do too, when very stressed or overwhelmed) it may take more time for her to be able to say what she needs to say if she's not doing great that day. You can't have a meaningful chat about someone's university studies in 1-2 minutes, so if that is the actual arrangement that was made, it's utterly pointless, and won't be of much use to her. If it's the contact she needs, rather than the academic content of the conversation, then it's for emotional support and not a fair ask of a tutor, she needs a support worker at uni for that, or someone in the wellbeing team.

University tutors are not school teachers. University students are not school children. University isn't boarding school for young adults, although increasingly it did start to feel that way. The reality of what parents like you are asking is that other adults burn themselves out to support your burned out child, that they should sacrifice their own wellbeing so she can have her "right" to an education at all costs. Never mind what it costs anybody else to hold her hand through it.

Unfortunately, the backlash you are getting here is because HE staff have had enough of their time and resources being squeezed, and their roles becoming more and more pastoral support based, which they are not trained for, and the emotional demands of which often fall on female staff. As you are seeing, the male staff often vote with their feet and simply don't do it. Or are so terrible at it that students don't bother going to them. But certainly when I was in HE and did pastoral support, I tried my best and in fact overdid and overworked and gave far too much, as did many of my colleagues.

I teach on average probably 3 days a week 9-5. On top of that I get between 50-100 emails a day. Most of which need a response, some of which are giving me work to do. On top of that I’m doing tutorials, marking, prep and admissions work as well as module lead stuff for the 4 modules I lead.

Am I burnt out? You bet.

which I appreciate isn’t the students fault. And if I was supposed to be doing something which is part of my role I’d make time (to my detriment). But not for stuff like this. Like pp said if it’s a welfare check in which it sounds like it is that’s for a student wellbeing type person to do. Has she investigated what support is available there?

So wrong. When I was a student over 40 years ago, I was barely aware that there were tuition fees, as my LEA paid them direct to the university. It was my responsibility to enrol and get on with my studies. If the university had decided I wasn't meeting their requirements they would have chucked me out and notified the LEA, I suppose. The sink or swim model in place then was tough - many would say far too tough - but it was one of the reasons graduates were able to get decent jobs. Employers knew we hadn't been spoonfed through three years of university study (nor through the school exams we had to pass to get there).

It's good there's a lot more understanding and support for school and university students now. My daughter benefited from this enormously (on the spectrum). However, I do think the pendulum has swung too far the other way. University students are adults. If they're having difficulties the responsibility for getting support surely lies with the student and their family. Nobody would expect an employer to provide this level of support, surely?

Long overdue that we all make a huge fuss about the appalling state the NHS is in, especially mental health services. We also need to take a long, hard look at why so many young people have very poor mental health. Something must be very wrong in the way we bring our children up or in the education system or both.

I’m not surprised. I’m a mature fresher - last did my other degrees 10 and 13 years ago - and my fellow students are doing my head in.

Every lecture there’s the susurrus of them chatting away about shite right behind me. Constant talking, going for a wee, ‘have you got a pen my tablets died… HAHAHAHHA’. Then they’re confused and saying the lecturer is shit when they just haven’t done the advised reading prior to the lecture or they’re lost in tutorial because they weren’t listening in the lecture. One bloke arrives, falls asleep on the desk. Every time. Many leave once they have the attendance code. People arrive 5, 10, 50 minutes late every single lecture. So disruptive and it’s about 15 per lecture!

I swear people weren’t as juvenile during my last degree. Or maybe I am now just old and grumpy.

Anyway grumble over 😂

Have you read the judgment?

She was offered several alternatives, including not speaking at all. The judgment makes it clear how much time multiple people in the university spent speaking to her and about her, trying to find a way for her to get the grades she needed.

As @CrazyGoatLady said "The reality of what parents like you are asking is that other adults burn themselves out to support your burned out child, that they should sacrifice their own wellbeing so she can have her "right" to an education at all costs. "

This! All my colleagues and I have powered through the increased demands on our time in the interests of students - while we've gone through significant life events - divorces, single parenting, loss of parents/partners, health issues. Not one of my colleagues or I has taken time off for mental health or been recognized including by the students/parents/academic administrators for how much we've stepped beyond our academic role to take on these types of responsibilities for multiple students. On the contrary, the demands just keep escalating.

All that is being suggested here by the academics is that parents be realistic about what University educators can do, and what is expected of their adult children in a competitive educational environment.

DD is in year two. She's got multiple timetable clashes which means she has to watch about 4hrs a week recorded lectures and she's not happy.

Most university lecturers also have research duties, which now include being under increasing pressure to obtain grant funding and perform well in REF. Even those who are teaching only are normally expected to conduct research and publish on pedagogy matters. A full portfolio of admin duties is also expected which goes beyond course-related admin but effectively amounts to running the department - implementing exam board procedures, running the study abroad programme, and so on. Just to give you an idea, I am only expected to spend 1/3 of my contracted time on teaching (and this includes contact hours, preparation, marking, meetings and e-mails from students, etc.).

I describe it as experiencing a live music event versus watching a music event recorded badly on someone’s phone. But I teach arts and hums students so maybe it resonates!

What is the answer though? We have the Government saying that ASD/ADHD/OCD and 'mental illness' isn't a good reason not to work. Then we have universities saying that if your ASD/ADHD/OCD or 'mental ill health' means that you need more support than other students, you shouldn't be doing the course. A lot of these students are academically capable. If we want a working society, we need to find ways of capturing their strengths and minimising the impact of their weaknesses.

It goes back to Quality First Provision. If mental health support was embedded into university culture, these students wouldn't need mental health support from the people who need to deliver the academic content of their course.