Week 3 and the 1st years are asking if they have to come to lectures, they’d rather watch the recordings

[CameForAVacationStayedForTheRevolution]

🙈🙈🙈🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

OMG, and during lock down students (and the majority of parents on MN) complained about online lectures and poor value for money due to lack of face to face on campus lectures. Lots of complaints after lockdown when it was a bit of a hybrid model for a year.

And now here we are with some students saying they’d rather not drive into town for lectures when they could watch them from home. Bearing in mind on our course our “lectures” are more of a lecture/seminar hybrid as it’s a small cohort so it’s not death by PowerPoint. There are group activities, etc, interactive stuff, quizes, etc. Trying to explain to them that discussion occurs at a better level when people are actually there in person as well! People are more likely to ask questions when not online.

Honestly, I’m baffled sometimes! I get it would save money in petrol and parking as well as less time if you don’t have to commute in but I never press ganged anyone to sign up for the course!

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow my Ds is ASD ( likely ADHD too but not dx for that). Plus he is Dyslexic. All developmental disabilities NOT mental illness (I know you know this, that was for benefit of some other posters)
In his DSA Plan is: 1 hr wk academic support, 1 hr a week organisational support (DSA pay Uni / hr at College it was billed at £75 / hr). Neither have started yet, & it's 6 weeks in
He is accessing 1 hr a wk Counselling atm.
Both Student Support & Ds & myself have emailed his Academic tutor to ask about attendance as he is missing time due to POTS. He has recording of all lectures available (he prefers to attend & watch before & after but is often too ill to attend) The email was to ask about what level of attendance becomes Disciplinary (he may be better to recovery & re-start next year) but no one will tell us. Not asking for any 'babysitting' just contact & clear replies re attendance. I hope your Dd gets the help she needs to thrive x

As someone who is a teacher and also a parent of a young person who has become disabled while at university, I am familiar with - and depressed by - both sides of this equation.

DC requires recorded lectures as a direct consequence of their disability - without this reasonable adjustment being available when needed (which is unpredictable), they can become significantly unwell. However, for all the reasons on display here, they have struggled to get lecturers to press ‘record’, as the lecturers are sometimes cynical and overwhelmed with (perhaps less well founded) requests and have refused or neglected to do so. This then requires DC to advocate for themselves - at length, and again at risk for their own health - with every individual lecturer.

Similarly, essential reasonable adjustments now have astonishingly high barriers - in time, bureaucracy, evidence collection - to application, which we have watched increase in complexity each year, in what is clearly an effort to rule out a tidal wave of more spurious requests. Unfortunately, it also prevents the genuinely in need, those who have historically always accessed such adjustments, being able to do so.

I completely understand the overwhelm of the academic staff faced by increasing numbers of students who ask for adjustments - this is the same in a school classroom, faced with conflicting SEN paperwork for a third or more of the class. I also fear that this leads to a situation where the truly in need, especially those who by virtue of their need cannot be sharp-elbowed, are failed by academic institutions at all levels.

ILPs are not always the best. If there's something she's struggling with then it's not always the personal tutor she needs to speak with. I have many students similar to your daughter and often they need to speak with the person teaching the module they're struggling with, not the personal tutor. Lecturers/module leaders will also have access to the ILP, should be checking to see which of their students have additional needs, and responding to those needs during and after lectures and seminars.
I have a student at the moment whose ILP is so badly written I've had to go back to disability services to advise them that they're asking for the impossible (think training to present in court and an ILP that says we can't ask the student to do presentations or even speak in class).
Also at my place first years don't have a personal tutor they have an academic coach who is not a member of teaching staff and solely employed to support all students in their first year of study. It works really well but not everywhere has them.

Totally hear you @cantkeepawayforever

And add to that that IME extended experience, academics are never consulted about what is feasible and pedagogically sound. Even as an HoD, I was never consulted about what would work within the bounds of, for example, what my colleagues could cope with and what our disciplinary QAA benchmarks are (the national certified standards for my discipline).

In my local situation, I’ve heard that staff in our student well-being service regularly take “mental health” days because of the pressure of dealing with students’ ILPs. Academic staff taking such days off is unheard of in my field. We soldier on through all sorts of illnesses and disabilities.

I’ve become quite cynical. That saddens me. I’m doing the only job I’ve ever wanted to do, but I’m pulling back from caring particularly much any more.

Natasha Abrahart's death was a terrible tragedy and seemed to me to be a sign of a horrible misjudgement by someone teaching that course. She was set the task of presenting and answering questions in a 300 odd seater lecture theatre and the university said being able to verbally explain your findings was a core competence for scientists. My view is that it clearly isn't as many scientists' work does not require this.g but more importantly, I can't see as an educator why doing this as a presentation in front of an audience in a massive room is an inherent part of the second year of a physics degree. That seemed ridiculously out of kilter and while I agree that parental expectations of adjustments may now be excessively high, in Natasha's case it was the learning expectations that were excessive and overly rigid.

On my course (not physics) we have adjusted a presentation for an anxious student by allowing them to give it in a room to one lecturer only, with one additional student in the room to be emotional support and also to witness proceedings. They did it and went on to do extremely well on the course. That kind of adjustment can be made without compromising learning outcomes. What would be less easy is simply to give the student a way out of the assessment in anything like the necessary form it should take.

With kindness, and I say this as a ND parent with ND older teens, it sounds like the level of support she will need is more than most universities will be able to provide. Disability support teams often put unrealistic expectations on teaching staff and don't follow up to check that the learning plans are working or sustainable.

It isn't fair to the student, so many are allowed to go to uni when despite being academically capable, they are not ready or emotionally resilient enough. In most cases, if I could have been truthful with some of the parents when I worked in HE, I'd tell them they would be better waiting a few years, engaging in some therapy, OT, group work etc to build the confidence and skills to go to university without needing special arrangements for every class or activity. They will get more from it.

I and my team now see some of these students on the other side, on placements and as newly qualified HCPs, and the huge amount of support and adaptations they get at university then means they aren't ready for the demands of work, dealing with patients, colleagues, etc. It feels almost cruel in some cases to have to put them out there on the front lines of patient care. I fear for the future with so many anxious young people struggling so badly with their mental health and not enough early help available so they are becoming young adults who can't attend lectures, email a tutor to arrange a meeting, work together with peers on a project, etc.

She’s in burnout, but on her way out.

Please don’t patronise me as to what’s she’s like. She’s been ill with burnout for 5 years. I kind of thought universities would be helpful to people like her. I was wrong.

When she fully recovers she’ll be fine. Just atm she needs support. But obviously it’s not available.

With kindness l don’t need you to tell me about my own child.

I agree with this. Again, in the most compassionate way possible, even if educators are able to provide the bespoke support needed (and this is a big if - we just don't have the hours in the day to do this for all the students who need it), we are not preparing them for the world of work where none of this support will be available.

It is worth considering what kind of course and career options might actually best enable them to succeed, given their unique abilities and capacities. Placing young adults in stressful, demanding educational situations they do not have the ability to cope with (and expecting educators to provide support to bridge the gap) does these young adults a disservice too.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow I'm sorry she's had burnout, it's horrible. It's difficult, you want her to have a chance and that's understandable. I don't think people here are deliberately being unkind, or patronising, they're being real about the odds of what's in this ILP matching with what the staff have capacity to do.

The number of ILPs seemed to double every year. It burned me out as a ND lecturer because it was so stressful and overwhelming trying to remember each student's individual arrangements for every class you taught, and the utter fear of getting it wrong and being raked over for discrimination. I can't even convey the stress of it. But the parents and students have no empathy for the uni staff they all feel they deserve a personalised experience in a mass system. Why? The universities are selling people things they can't deliver without subjecting their staff to overwork and burnout. The whole system isn't sustainable and it's not fair on anybody - students, staff or families.

She’s been ill with burnout for 5 years. I kind of thought universities would be helpful to people like her. I was wrong.

Yes I’m afraid you are wrong. University is not therapy. She will probably do much better when she is healthy again. And it would be fairer for her, and not set her up with unreasonable expectations, and at serious risk of further burn out.

I think your posts and your attitude to university as a tool in your DD’s therapy is a good demonstration of the problems we academics are seeing.

@ParmaVioletTea this is unfortunately bang on. University doesn't exist to help students recover from physical illness, mental health problems, or burnout. It's a programme of academic study, with staff who are trained to educate, not an occupational therapy programme staffed by HCPs.

Thanks @CrazyGoatLady

When students and parents are unclear about this, we get the muddle we’re in now. And in the long run, students are not well served by infantilising them, and instrumentalising their higher education. And that’s before we get to the required knowledge and skills that long suffering colleagues such as @CameForAVacationStayedForTheRevolution are trying g to teach. Do we really want HCPs who can’t time-keep, can’t speak to strangers, and can’t work in productive teams?

a parent such as @ArseInTheCoOpWindow calls me unempathetic and disablist. I’m not - I actually care far more about my students’ true education far more than many of my students do. And I think attitudes such as @ArseInTheCoOpWindow ’s are actually counter- productive for their DC in the long run. I understand that when it’s your own child, you have no perspective or professional judgement - that’s why we as a society have actual professionals educating our DC. That outside eye can sometimes be what a young person needs.

I know that’s been the case for past students of mine, whose parents seemed to impede their education and maturation more than they helped, sadly.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow it might help you more to go to the SEND boards.

I've had scores of personal tutees and found it very hard to get students to attend personal tutorials, even if offered online.

The system effectively relied on lecturers responding to ad hoc requests for help as human beings, out of concern and goodwill. This was fine until it became unsustainable. I've heard more senior colleagues say that the personal tutorial model has effectively broken down across the sector. It may of course have improved since I left.

Most difficult were cases where students would disappear from class, fail to hand in assessments of any kind, and then submit an appeal at the very last minute - just before the following academic year. They had usually been chased up at this point by several academic and professional services staff, including staff whose precise job was to monitor attendance and facilitate ILPs.

The kind of support you envisage was available, but take-up was low - and the requests that came in were unpredictable. They were often made around assessment deadlines or during the August resit period, when staff were more likely to be on leave. Generally, students wanted one-to-one teaching akin to private tuition, a level of service which relies on most students never using it.

Welfare checks were often carried out by relevant services once students had failed to respond repeatedly, who tried to visit them in person if in student accommodation. A variety of support services were available, but relied on the student contacting them first. We offered to sit with such students to walk them through the process, but again this relied on them taking up the offer. I did personalise invitations and check in repeatedly with needier students - but this took time I hadn't been allocated, and while responsiveness improved, it did not do so dramatically.

OP: your job is to understand and advocate for your own child so of course you see her as a special case. Bear in mind that her lecturers are working in a sector in crisis, covering the work of colleagues who have left and not been replaced, often rewriting courses or developing new courses every term to populate ever-changing programmes. They have usually seen scores of complex cases, which is why they might sound hardened here. My own experience has been that people are kind and humane and do care about their students. Students have little sense of how many have a similar level of need.

You have also said that she is 'paying for this'. If it helps to know - for students who never work, their student loan will eventually be written off. The government has modelled the proportion of students who are likely to never pay back their loans (since a predictable percentage will be too unwell or will choose low-paid professions), and have already written it down (i.e. paid for it) for this financial year. The lender only has a claim over the borrower's income if the borrower earns enough to pay it back.

Of course students do have rights as consumers, and they also have rights to fair treatment under equalities legislation. But HE is not really a consumer service - you can't buy a degree.

I understand that. But if the degree earning outcomes state that students are able to present to large audiences then that is what they should be able to do. Otherwise, how is an employer to know which can and which can't? How do professional bodies know whom to admit to their ranks? How are students supposed to know how fair their final classification is, when they understand that some have opted out of the requirements and been given an easier option?

I wouldn't want to force anyone to speak in front of 350 people, but why should some have to and not others? If someone doesn't do it, why should they get the same degree as those who have? How can there be additions to the requirements of those who don't, to compensate the ones who do do it?

There are many courses available for all subjects. Isn't it reasonable to expect prospective students to research them and find one that has assessment methods that suit their needs? After all, many are turned away from courses for which their academic qualifications are not up to scratch, and the best-regarded courses ask for higher grades than less prestigious ones, so students are fully aware of the differential values and accept that most people can't, for whatever reason, meet the academic requirements of various degrees and institutions. They are expected to find another course, so why not expect the same of those who can't meet the others? How is it discriminatory to refuse to change assessments for some, but not to make them less academically rigorous for others?

If all students insist that assessment methods meet their requirements, rather than that they meet the requirements of the assessments, what exactly is being measured? In the end, degrees will become pointless, and those complaining about spending money on them will find that they have wasted their money.

Not every student is disabled on arrival at university.

It is particularly hard if we are requiring a student - already losing the ‘able’ future that seemed to stretch ahead of them at 18 - to also lose the course that they qualified to join, especially if they can succeed with a level of reasonable adjustment in line with what might be considered reasonable in the modern workplace they will join (eg physical accessibility; part time working; a balance of wfh and physical presence).

Becoming disabled as a student is also an eye- opener in terms of the ‘costs’ (time; effort; money; compromise) of being disabled. DC’s life, in all areas, requires a level of admin, of negotiation with tens of stakeholders , of planning ahead, of carefully husbanding energy, of equipment & consumables, that is unimaginably different from their experience as an ‘able’ student.

I became disabled in my job about a decade ago. It was apparently “temporary “ but last 2 years of inability to use one side of my body + chronic pain. The university was useless and the students complained that I wasn’t marking their work quickly enough. No support for academic staff and it’s worse now.

@ParmaVioletTea I think for me some of it came down to the difference between providing reasonable adjustments so that students with disabilities have equality of opportunity, and propping up students who were not fit to study. The former, as you say, I am absolutely committed to (have a different role now but still very linked in with local HE providers). The latter was what became very draining and difficult, as outlined in the post by @nowatthehitshow . Some students were not even able to engage even with all the support in the ILPs and more besides. It wasn't the student's fault, in most cases. They either were too unwell and/or not ready for or suited to university, but didn't know what else to do, or the parents had pushed for it because they knew the young person wasn't ready for work, but needed to be doing something with their lives and not just stagnating at home.

Some of the parents I did speak to would take it awfully personally if we even in the gentlest of terms suggested their son or daughter wasn't fit to study at the present time. It wasn't that we didn't like their child, or thought them a pain, or didn't want to help them. They simply couldn't manage even the most rudimentary aspects of what a university course requires, and some were not particularly motivated to do so, either. I could absolutely see from dealing with a few of the parents how some of the young people got their fragility and extreme sensitivity to the slightest criticism from, or the ability to interpret being told "no" as a rejection they can never recover from!

I have had/have currently students with mutism. Without a doubt it demanded a huge amount from their personal tutors, but they can do well if they get outside support via DLA. But mine is not a subject with clinical competency or accreditation.

Where it isn't working is where students do indeed have comorbidities of anxiety, panic attacks, depression etc. Autism or Audhd is not a mental health condition, but it often coexists with them.

One student cried through every lecture. I tried to make adjustments to reduce stress and gradually build up but the parent insisted they come in for absolute everything from the start. Some parents just do not know what to do with their young adult child with SEN and think uni is the answer and push and push. It is not for many of these students. They cannot cope and it's not fair.

Parents of kids with SEN, are so used to fighting the school system, they carry on at uni. But at uni, we are in a contract with an adult. Not the parents. I try to refer for counselling. Students with ADHD forget their appointments or find it doesn't help. Usually these students are already familiar with counselling and have opinions on its usefulness.

Another student with ASC demanded weekly one to ones. I nearly broke myself trying to support them (this was during the pandemic). It was a nightmare. They didn't retain any information. They were so anxious and stressed, they didn't listen to anything I said. Other students complained. Because it was online at the time, if they asked to speak in a breakout room privately, other students were just left with no tutor. I would say I can do 10 minutes but once they started talking (and the parent joined in) I was stuck and short of cutting them off completely, it was v difficult to keep to time and look after the 30 odd other students some of which also had autism. I even got an aggressive email from them in the end because they just demanded so much from me, it was absolutely impossible and not even helping them. The entitlement was huge from them and their parent. I was lucky that my manager backed me up when the parent unbelievably complained. I truly went above and beyond for that tutee and that was the thanks I got. A flipping complaint because it was still not enough. Short of doing the work for them, I don't know what else I could have done.

I will never go through that again. It is not fair to anyone and my own health will not allow it. I am disabled myself but ableism is only about students isn't it?

We are absolutely heading down the route of assessment for the lowest denominator for all students with the train of thought that inclusive assessment means offering the choice of different assessments types to all. And students will opt out and not challenge themselves. They will do a recorded presentation (that they've edited to get right) over live presenting. It is not the same thing at all. Some need it as an option, but not all and we're being asked to make this kind of choice available to all so students don't have to get RA on a bespoke basis.

That’s appalling. I’m so sorry to hear that.

@nowatthehitshow I have had one not turn up at all for a year or more. I've referred through the procedure to withdraw, in their own interests and been allowed to continue on appeal. Senior managers are scared about retention with Ofs breathing down their necks.

These students limp along for years if they have parents willing to bank roll them when they exhaust the usual funding.

Obviously if attendance is monitored then they need to be there. But I wouldn’t assume laziness for all of them. People learn differently (including not really benefitting from group work).
I am doing a professional accountancy qualification and am doing it through online learning, rather than choosing the in person college days (work would have paid for either). I can pause to make my notes, go back over certain bits, pause to google something, there’s no distractions, I can skip the bits I already know, and I don’t have to listen to someone else asking a stupid question (unkind of me I know, but the bane of my life at school and uni - I’m not saying they shouldn’t ask, but it’s nice I now don’t have to listen to it). There’s never something I didn’t understand that a quick google couldn’t resolve, and I’ve passed all the exams with over 90%, so it’s not hindered my learning.

As a mature student (39) in my second year of a degree programme I’ve become increasingly frustrated by the lack of academic independence among many of my peers. We’re a small cohort aged between 19 and 39, most in their late 20. Very few engage with the required reading. In-class discussions are often pointless because people haven’t done the groundwork, and lecturers are forced to constantly repeat content just to keep the group afloat.

Many of them wait until the last minute to start assignments, ask to be told exactly what to write, and then complain about their grades, blaming lecturers rather than taking ownership. There’s an alarming lack of resilience and initiative. They want everything broken down into baby steps and handed to them.

A significant number of students in my cohort have ADHD, autism, or dyslexia. I support reasonable adjustments, I’m autistic myself and have bipolar disorder. I was under the community mental health team during my first year and had many appointments. However, I still kept on top of lectures, readings, and assignments. I’ve consistently achieved firsts, including in exams. I understand struggle. But I also believe support should enable success, not replace effort.

The level of support some students require makes me question whether fitness to study assessments should be more widely applied. It’s unfair on both universities and other students to continually bend over backwards for individuals who are, frankly, not ready for higher education. University isn’t school. There should be a basic expectation that students can handle the academic and emotional demands with appropriate support, not unlimited handholding.

What concerns me most is how all this has affected my own perception of achievement. I no longer feel proud of my academic success because it no longer feels like a high bar to clear. The dumbing down of degree content, the watering down of assessments, and the constant stream of concessions have made it feel like anyone can pass if they’re just kept on the conveyor belt long enough.

We’re creating a generation of graduates who will be utterly unprepared for the working world, where deadlines are real, expectations are high, and people aren’t interested in excuses. My own 18 year old DS has just started university. He knows effort, structure, and discomfort are part of the deal. I’ve raised him to be accountable, not entitled.

We need to have an honest conversation about how the education system and some parents may be unintentionally setting young people up to struggle. There’s an increasing expectation that discomfort should be avoided at all costs. But university is meant to challenge you. Critical thinking, time management, and resilience are all part of what higher education is supposed to develop.

It may sound harsh, but I say all this as someone who is in the system, not as an outsider judging it. I’m genuinely concerned for the future of higher education if this continues.

Thank you to those posters who understand where academics are coming from.

We are generally a very dedicated bunch of professionals. It’s so frustrating to experience our skills and dedication belittled by governments, university administrators, parents, and students.

Do you mean DSA rather than DLA? Very, very few working age adults are still on DLA. Most working age adults in receipt of disability benefit are on PIP now.

You shouldn't have had those demands placed on you. Such 1:1 support should come from NMHs such as specialist mentors and study skills (and strategy) tutors.

@flawlessflipper I do mean DSA. Sorry.

They had a support worker too.

See I get brain fog with what I deal with 🙈