Week 3 and the 1st years are asking if they have to come to lectures, they’d rather watch the recordings

[CameForAVacationStayedForTheRevolution]

🙈🙈🙈🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

OMG, and during lock down students (and the majority of parents on MN) complained about online lectures and poor value for money due to lack of face to face on campus lectures. Lots of complaints after lockdown when it was a bit of a hybrid model for a year.

And now here we are with some students saying they’d rather not drive into town for lectures when they could watch them from home. Bearing in mind on our course our “lectures” are more of a lecture/seminar hybrid as it’s a small cohort so it’s not death by PowerPoint. There are group activities, etc, interactive stuff, quizes, etc. Trying to explain to them that discussion occurs at a better level when people are actually there in person as well! People are more likely to ask questions when not online.

Honestly, I’m baffled sometimes! I get it would save money in petrol and parking as well as less time if you don’t have to commute in but I never press ganged anyone to sign up for the course!

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow can she use some of her UC and PIP to pay for a 1-1 part time assistant to support her? I know students who do this.

Office hours are 2-4 hours a week when we are required to be in our offices available for any student simply to drop in. These hours are advertised on our staff web pages, , on course materials, and also in emails to students.

They are ann opportunity for students to consult with us about essays and other assessments, difficulties they may be encountering, getting advice about careers or further study - anything really. But we are NOT therapists. We refer on and in this case, in my view, it would be unethical to do otherwise. I’m not trained to deal with a student’s mental illness, just as I’m not trained to deal with physical illness.

I’d really genuinely like to know what you think the tutor should actually be doing.

Meh, I don't think it's a post-covid thing. I graduated in 2009 and 2 of the 4 other girls I lived with literally never attended a single lecture, just watched the power points. They all got 2.1s. This was a high ranking RG uni.

I don't think the way unis work are really set up to reward effort. It is really easy to get a 2.1 and incredibly difficult to get a first.
In my second year I went to every lecture, tutorial, planned my essays well in advance, did the background reading, etc. Received a mix of high 2.1s and low firsts, with an overall mark of 69 - so just slightly too low to get an overall first.

In my third year I had an issue with my student loan and also had a bereavement which meant I just could not be bothered - I worked nearly full time, partied more, barely went to a single lecture, and half heartedly dashed off my essays last minute. Still got (low) 60s for all of them = the same 2.1 grade overall, as did 90% of the class. I'd say less than 5% got firsts, maybe 5% got thirds.

If I'd known how hard it would be to get a first I would have done the same in years 1 and 2 as I did in 3 - would have had more fun and accrued less debt!

While a few lecturers were genuinely inspiring and interesting, with some of the others I learned nothing more from an hour in the lectures than 10 minutes reading the powerpoint. Particularly in humanities type subjects, there's no actual reward beyond the love of learning the subject in putting more effort in. At least in vocational subjects there's the chance you will actually use what you're learning in your subsequent job.

Other countries (like the US with the GPA) differentiate between different grades.

I think universities have to accept some blame - pack students in in huge numbers, minimal tutorials or small group engagement just giant lectures, charge them a fortune, don't bother with interviews etc for acceptance but just go off statements, treat them like shit during covid, and then be surprised when they treat uni as a purchase rather than an experience.

Um just asking if she was Ok? And did she have any worries?

Thats all- no big deal. Just contact.

But according to you that’s impossible. At no point did l say a lecturer had to act as a therapist. Just a check in.

yes, we are 100% told by senior leadership that we should not talk to students about anything other than course/academic related issues. No mental health support, no listening about relationships or housemate woes, not about anxiety, etc. If a student starts such a conversation we should stop it and signpost them to Student Services.

We are definitely not trained counsellors or mental health workers and the universities employ people in the student support department who are better trained to support students with such issues.

So yes, I would question the benefit of a weekly 1-1 with a student when I would have nothing to talk to them about. If they want to make an appointment to discuss an assignment that’s different.

She isn’t expecting any of that.

Just a check to ask if she’s struggling with anything on the course.

Stop over exaggerating. She lives at home. We deal with all the other stuff.

It’s not a good use of an academic’s very limited time. Your DD was given a badly designed ILP - not one that anyone in my department would support ( and we are regularly in the top 5 in the league tables). It serves no pedagogical purpose.

She should have been given a regular therapy appointment with someone trained in ways to assist her in finding coping strategies.

No, this isn’t want she wants.

Read my posts.

She doesn’t want therapy. Why would she want a lecturer to do that. What would anyone?

She just wants a check in academically. In case there’s something she struggling with.

Its in her plan. Whether you choose to follow it or not. It’s there in writing. And if she doesn’t get this 1 minute check in ( not therapy) then it will be chased up.

What an eye opener this thread is.

Dismissive of students
Disablist
ILP’s are ignored/don’t matter
Tutors ignore/avoid students

From the best brains in the U.K.. The cream of academia. Thinking like this!

Presumably, if a minimum number of hours are mandatory, then your organisation is monitoring attendance, and those who don’t get enough hours face-to-face will fail the course?

I appreciate this is challenging, and I'm sorry your DC is not getting the support they need. Every situation is unique ofcourse and I am not commenting specifically on your DC's situation.

More generally, it is worth keeping in mind that a large number of students coming into the University system these days have bespoke needs (and they, their parents, and student services advocate vigorously for special treatment for them). The University system is being squeezed (including by limits on graduate students/immigration, and thus financial crunches) so there isn't a corresponding increase in the number of tutors needed to cater to these bespoke needs. Tutors are already doing considerably more work for less pay than they were a decade ago. In my field tutors are being asked to provide different forms of teaching (to cater to different needs), and setting several types of exam papers (rather than one form of teaching and one standard exam paper as they used to) for every course they teach. Many students also feel entitled to one-on-one time with tutors even if they are just anxious about an exam or about keeping up with their reading. For whatever reason, many of those coming into the University system do not appear to have the first order coping mechanisms and resilience to deal with the academic environment. It is not sustainable to expect underpaid, stretched tutors to cope with such ever-expanding demands on their time.

I didn’t say that she was, simply saying what we are told we shouldn’t deal with. If an ILP says a student has anxiety, etc (and a third of my students every year have ILPs which say this) and that i should meet with them every week how am i supposed to know what the student may or may not want to talk to me about.

All I do know for sure is that I’m not workloaded to provide that service. Not for one student, not for the other 29 students who have anxiety. I’d do an initial meeting and say they know where I am and if they have a specific issue to contact me.

Nope.

edited, sorry 8 answered that too quickly. Yes we monitor attendance but nobody fails. They just need to say they’ve read the ppt/watched the recording.

It’s in her plan. Whether you choose to follow it or not. It’s there in writing. And if she doesn’t get this 1 minute check in ( not therapy) then it will be chased up.

By you or your daughter? Because if your daughter can chase it up then she can also email her tutor when there’s an issue. We wouldn’t respond to an email from a parent 🤷‍♀️

But Dh is the named person on her PIP award, as she couldn’t do it herself. And this was raised with disability.

So actually we can contact them…..

Oh come on, it's not a one-minute check in unless she says "everything's fine" each time.

You're expecting way too much.

Well maybe the disability team will respond if you contact them then.

Not everyone is a suitable candidate for university, but it's increasingly difficult to(if not impossible) to turn anyone away, as parents all want their children to graduate and are too willing to cry 'discrimination'. What people forget is that it discriminates against students who comply with course requirements when others don't, and they then complain when they see people getting out of assignments by citing anxiety. I used to run a course that had professional accreditation, and the accrediting body insisted that students had to give presentations alone and as part of a team. If we didn't use those assessment methods we could have lost the accreditation, and the course would have closed. Increasingly, we were sent students who (despite having been given information about assessment and so on at every stage of the application process) refused to do them. The profession they wanted to join was very much based on the ability to communicate in all channels, but they wanted written assessments only - except for the ones with dyslexia, or ADD, and so on.

I have every sympathy with people who are held back by conditions, but the point of a degree is to show that graduates are capable of doing the things it measures, and many of mine were simply not capable. When it came to references, we were no longer allowed to comment on any of this, but it struck me that many of the presentation refusers managed to do them at interviews when jobs and ££ depended on stepping out of their comfort zones, but they were happy to let others do the work when they had a 'get out' clause. A lot of my time was spent mollifying students who did do the required work but saw others get out of it, and negotiating with professional bodies whose representatives went to university when there were non-negotiable standards. It was a nightmare, as management were only interested in numbers and the bloody NSS, which was doomed anyway, as the conflicting interests meant that there would be complaints whatever we did.

I did care about students, but the ability to help in imaginative ways was eroded year on year by people standing on their rights, regardless of how their own entitlement impacted on other people. I left.

I care very much about my students - our Senior Personal Tutor has several times commented on my effective advocacy for my tutees!

but I have clear professional boundaries and I also happen to know the law. We question ILPs which are in the grey area of being potentially unreasonable adjustments or accommodations.

An in- person once a week check in by an academic because a student cannot (for whatever reason) use the multiple channels for checking in already available, is in that grey area of potential unreasonableness.

And as almost all the experienced academic staff on this thread have said, increasing numbers of young people are unprepared for university. And they’re often aided and abetted in this by litigious or uncomprehending parents. Parents don’t realise how much they are infantilising their DC handicapping them in their future lives, and contributing to the devaluation of their DCs’ degrees.

The instrumentalising of degrees (and evidenced by some posts on this thread) is very depressing to those of us dedicated to rigorous education to prepare young people for independent and productive lives.

i know im a naive fool, but after almost 40 years teaching, i am still shocked at the lack of interest in some undergrads (and their parents) in learning and knowledge as transformative. It’s not about the bit of paper - it’s about what you do to achieve the bit of paper.

Did you read the judgment of Uni of Bristol vs Abrahart? I was open mouthed by the end of it.

💯 @ShyMaryEllen

I teach in a discipline in which live communication, presentation, and collaborative teamwork is essential.

And we now get students who claim they won’t/can’t do group work, can’t speak in class nor for assessment and shouldn’t have to be physically present all the time.

It’s getting both ridiculous and really worrying.

@ParmaVioletTea agree. A student who may struggle with standard expectations and will probably be in a better place at the end of 3 years if they’ve had to push themselves.

Obviously there is a balance. Nobody wants what happened to the Bristol student to happen to one of their students but I do think it’s a bit unfair to blame the university for what happened. Someone who is in an ok place is not going to commit suicide over such a thing. If it hadn’t been the presentation which tipped her over the edge would it have been something else? It’s a while since I read about it, am I right in thinking that they didn’t offer her the opportunity to do a private presentation rather than in front of the class? See I would have allowed that. But ultimately if the module says the assessment for that module is X then the student has to do X.

I can’t change the assessment without doing a major modification. And where does it end, some students don’t like essays so they refuse to write them and want a multi choice test instead? Someone doesn’t like an exam so wants an essay? Someone else wants to draw a spider diagram, someone else wants to do a poster?

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow typically, it wouldn’t be an academic who checks in with disabled students on a weekly basis. It would usually be NMHs. For those with ASD, most commonly a specialist mentor. Some with ASD will also have a specialist study skills tutor (sometimes called study skills and strategy support tutor). Has DD applied for DSA?

It's not just a 1 minute checkin though, unless you think every week there will be no issues, in which case she doesn't need a checkin.
If I were asked to accommodate this I would be asking student support to do the checkin and alert me if anything was needed that could not be provided by them or generic academic support like the library.
I have 25 tutees, that's 100 meetings in 6 months on top of any additional meetings they request or serious crises that have to be addressed. There is no room left in our workloads, blame the government and universities for creating a system that's dependent on huge student numbers and low staff.

I'm an FE lecturer but finding this thread very interesting. In the past few years we have found students demand and expect more mental health support from us. This is sometimes backed up with a similar expectation from parents.
I think we're in a better posistion to offer this, as our numbers are smaller and the general ethos of FE is about developing the whole person- not just the academic side.
I support students in their ucas applications and do get frustrated when students are offered places when nothing about their predicted grade, statement or reference raises a red flag (although I guess this is down to admissions and numbers/money).
I'll be sure to add resilience to my references this year- for the ones who have it!

It depends what system you've got. We've got Panopto and Big Blue Button and I know you can check with those, but I tend to 'forget' to record anyway. If pushed by management Ive gone back and recorded a 30 minute edited highlights (boring) version.
Last week I warned my first years that I have the power to name and shame the ones who haven't yet accessed the lecture notes/reading list etc on the vle. They were shocked the I could track their usage.