Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Fuck. Russian bomb has hit Poland.

762 replies

FayeGovan · 15/11/2022 19:09

What now?

Im scared.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Zuno · 16/11/2022 11:58

“Freedom of Speech”.

PaidthepiperTuneismine · 16/11/2022 11:59

Zuno · 16/11/2022 11:58

“Freedom of Speech”.

No - that's bullying, ridiculing and name-calling.

Booklover3 · 16/11/2022 12:00

I just had the feeling that even if it was a Russian rocket, then they would say it was Ukrainian, because they don’t want to escalate the issue.

Which no one particularly wants to be fair… but I did think from the moment I heard about it that it would end up being “Ukrainian.”

and I’m a bit depressed about that because I obviously have no faith whatsoever in any politician or government organisation.

Zuno · 16/11/2022 12:01

Nope it’s not - it’s saying I don’t think you are right - it’s an expression. And it does not mean I’ve called you a fool - it means I feel your opinion / behaviour is.

PaidthepiperTuneismine · 16/11/2022 12:01

Booklover3 · 16/11/2022 12:00

I just had the feeling that even if it was a Russian rocket, then they would say it was Ukrainian, because they don’t want to escalate the issue.

Which no one particularly wants to be fair… but I did think from the moment I heard about it that it would end up being “Ukrainian.”

and I’m a bit depressed about that because I obviously have no faith whatsoever in any politician or government organisation.

I can't shake that suspicion either. I'm not buying the version we're being told hook, line and sinker.

notimagain · 16/11/2022 12:06

PaidthepiperTuneismine · 16/11/2022 12:01

I can't shake that suspicion either. I'm not buying the version we're being told hook, line and sinker.

So what's your version then?

Hancox432 · 16/11/2022 12:07

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2022 11:46

That risk doesn't diminish by staying out of the war either.

Ultimately you have a problem with a leader who doesn't recognise the integrity of sovereign status. You have a leader who wants to reclaim the glory of the Soviet Empire and is on record as saying this and has acted by invading another country.

This country had agreements in place which had been fostered by the involvement of other nations. The 2014 Minsk Agreement had been brokered by France and Germany. Breaking such an agreement - and let's stress that there were loud calls for diplomatic solutions steps before a tank went over the border from the US, UK, France and others - represented a disregard for international law.

The involvement of NATO countries and NATO itself having helped train Ukrainian troops since 2014 was well known about. The irony here is that since the fail of the wall there have been efforts to involve Russians with NATO training (something of a legacy from Bosnia and cooperation there)

Now whatever your views on how the US has behaved with international law (and there are question marks), anyone who breaks that is going to be seen as a potential threat and all nations understand this (going back to the US, that does still hold true and its why anti-US imperial sentiments do exist throughout the world).

Given that Russia has nukes, that can't be taken lightly by anyone close to Russia. Especially due to historical contexts and in some cases the fact that freedom had to be fought for in the first place (Eastern Europeans).

The idea that Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuaniawho joined NATO precisely because of these type of fears would be just fine with it, is one that's nuts. Equally the idea that the US were just going to appease is hard to shift too.

Yet Putin gambled on it because he thought he had the military power to do so. And indeed the West largely thought he had the ability to pull it off and posed a threat and will continue to pose a threat for years.

The point is, is its not about 'not getting involved'. The issue is the moment Russia took sections of Ukraine in 2014 we were already involved and had vested defensive concerns.

No one 'made' Russia do this, no matter what they say. They just didn't. It was a free choice made by Russia.

The war could end tomorrow. All Russia has to do is declare its withdrawal. And thats where it begins and ends in terms of threat of WWIII. In Moscow. Not anywhere else.

I think our main problem is deeper within Russia. While yes Putin started this war. I don't think it all goes away once he's gone. And some experts even suggest it may get worse with a new leader.

How we deal with this deep Russian idiology is for smarter heads than me to work out.

PaidthepiperTuneismine · 16/11/2022 12:08

notimagain · 16/11/2022 12:06

So what's your version then?

I think that there are a lot of countries who might have motive for accidentally firing a missile into Poland.... Draw your own conclusions.

Venetiaparties · 16/11/2022 12:08

Booklover3 · 16/11/2022 12:00

I just had the feeling that even if it was a Russian rocket, then they would say it was Ukrainian, because they don’t want to escalate the issue.

Which no one particularly wants to be fair… but I did think from the moment I heard about it that it would end up being “Ukrainian.”

and I’m a bit depressed about that because I obviously have no faith whatsoever in any politician or government organisation.

We said exactly this last night. Regardless of the truth, this was always going to be an 'accident'
It will only stop being an 'accident' if Putin does it again.
It is 'probably' and 'appears' is very telling.
They are not saying it was definitely an accident, the tracking was checked and it was clearly from this position XXX in Ukraine, and Ukraine apologises for the loss of life in Poland. We can see it for ourselves perhaps on the footage and how it happened.
That is not what we are seeing, at all.

So I have my doubts about this 'probably' being an accident because if it were truly an accident there would be no probably about it!!
By definition it does not ring true.

It is going to be very telling when Ukraine responds to this update. We will find out all we need to know then.

Anything less than a full apology to Poland and full responsibility will not shift my view on this accident. Accidents do happen, but ones that are being recorded don't tend to have so much uncertainty surrounding them.

PaidthepiperTuneismine · 16/11/2022 12:11

NATO Secretary General is pointedly refusing to answer several direct questions now by press regarding whether there was debris of a Russian missile as well as the Ukrainian defence missile and whether any impact was made with a Russian missile and if so, in the air or on the ground. Obviously, for operational reasons, they can't really answer that I suppose, but you can see that the media is questioning the details.

Booklover3 · 16/11/2022 12:11

Yes @Venetiaparties it was the “probably” and “appears” words that made me draw the same conclusion as you.

Venetiaparties · 16/11/2022 12:15

If I was sitting in the Nato HQ I would be considering my options, for sure I would want to wait and see if there are further Russian incursions. One bomb should not sound the beginning of a wider war.

I might ready the different countries involved just in case, I might instigate no fly zones and moreover I would not assume for a minute that Russia has no intention of daring to provoke Nato. I would assume that is exactly what Putin might wish to do, to deflect his disaster in Ukraine.

What better deflection could be produced in record speed to get the new channels out of Kherston, a Russian failure and scaring the living shit out of ordinary Europeans? Bingo! And he didn't even need to press any buttons.

Booklover3 · 16/11/2022 12:17

And that’s it feels like continuous hedging of questions rather than stating facts.

I think I would have more respect for all of the leaders if they were more factual and decisive actually.

This currently feels like it’s going to limp on forever with it taking up more and more resources. Im not warmongering. I wouldn’t rather everyone went on the attack. I would prefer someone just quietly offed Putin. I can’t see an end to this currently.

Venetiaparties · 16/11/2022 12:18

I just don't buy it book I can see how convenient it might be for Ukraine to take the blame, and the decision not to escalate is a sound one at this point.

But what are we losing in the process? Can we believe what we are being told?

The 'probably' and 'appears' leaves room for speculation, uncertainty and a second more deliberate bomb landing in Poland or elsewhere.

We are in exactly the same position as we were in last night, the degree of risk and seriousness has not changed - I can't help but believe we have entered a new part of this war.

PaidthepiperTuneismine · 16/11/2022 12:19

Venetiaparties · 16/11/2022 12:15

If I was sitting in the Nato HQ I would be considering my options, for sure I would want to wait and see if there are further Russian incursions. One bomb should not sound the beginning of a wider war.

I might ready the different countries involved just in case, I might instigate no fly zones and moreover I would not assume for a minute that Russia has no intention of daring to provoke Nato. I would assume that is exactly what Putin might wish to do, to deflect his disaster in Ukraine.

What better deflection could be produced in record speed to get the new channels out of Kherston, a Russian failure and scaring the living shit out of ordinary Europeans? Bingo! And he didn't even need to press any buttons.

Not beyond the realms of possibility. Ukraine has begged to be part of NATO. We knew that that was provoking Putin. In fact, it's his justification of this war (or it was at the beginning). He was 'concerned' about NATO forces expanding onto his borders. Ukraine has had 10 months of war now and is a little bit shell-shocked. Poland too, has reason to be concerned, despite being in NATO.

Hancox432 · 16/11/2022 12:19

Venetiaparties · 16/11/2022 12:15

If I was sitting in the Nato HQ I would be considering my options, for sure I would want to wait and see if there are further Russian incursions. One bomb should not sound the beginning of a wider war.

I might ready the different countries involved just in case, I might instigate no fly zones and moreover I would not assume for a minute that Russia has no intention of daring to provoke Nato. I would assume that is exactly what Putin might wish to do, to deflect his disaster in Ukraine.

What better deflection could be produced in record speed to get the new channels out of Kherston, a Russian failure and scaring the living shit out of ordinary Europeans? Bingo! And he didn't even need to press any buttons.

And that's why we're all delighted you are not the Head of NATO

notimagain · 16/11/2022 12:22

@Venetiaparties

They are not saying it was definitely an accident, the tracking was checked and it was clearly from this position XXX in Ukraine, and Ukraine apologises for the loss of life in Poland. We can see it for ourselves perhaps on the footage and how it happened.
That is not what we are seeing, at all.

What sort of "tracking" do you think exists, what footage are you expecting to be released and would the general public even understand it if it was released?

Proper primary radar pictures, especially from many fire control radars, especially some of the older ones look nothing like the sort of stuff you see on TV or on the likes of on apps such as flight radar.

...and TBH I suspect even if something was produced for public release I'm sure some would claim the footage was doctored/came out of Hollywood so there's not really much point anyway.

PaidthepiperTuneismine · 16/11/2022 12:22

NATO is being cautious. War tactics are never disseminated to the wider public in a daily bulletin. Some shit, we will never know. Leadership and management, particularly of world peace (!), rightly needs to be kept to a need to know basis.

Venetiaparties · 16/11/2022 12:24

And the reason why the thread became so febrile last night was so many sensing the shift in the war, the new phase and they were reacting.

I will only believe this new statement when I can see what happened by satellite, the Ukrainians have publicly confirmed this is the case, and it is without question confirmed on the ground as something that happened defensively with substantial. Anything else will be a white wash.

A dangerous white wash.

Goldenbear · 16/11/2022 12:24

Yes, I agree!

He didn't, 'scare the living shit' out of many Europeans though did he, it seems you are disappointed by this fact!

Venetiaparties · 16/11/2022 12:26

Hancox432 · 16/11/2022 12:19

And that's why we're all delighted you are not the Head of NATO

Me too, actually. Who would want to be making the hard decisions now. It must have looked like such an effortless role last year - plenty of perks, great salary and a job for the last sixty years that required no input or energy, how times have changed.

Goldenbear · 16/11/2022 12:26

I agree with Hancox432- thread had moved on.

PaidthepiperTuneismine · 16/11/2022 12:26

Put it this way.

NATO has no appetite for declaring war on Russia. The press conf. today, seemed to squarely lay the blame for any accidental missile ending up in Poland on Russia's war in Ukraine - not on Ukraine.

What was concerning is that he did seem to speak about the continuing dangers of this war and seemed to be hinting at strengthening NATO defence forces on the Eastern border.

PaidthepiperTuneismine · 16/11/2022 12:28

If you want to watch the full press conf., it should be here. It's just finished, but I'm sure they'll upload it. UK media cut to PMs questions half-way through.........

notimagain · 16/11/2022 12:28

@Venetiaparties

I will only believe this new statement when I can see what happened by satellite,

So now you want to see satellite imagery (if it exists) of this one specific engagement...

You're going to be disappointed...