Who is English?

[mids2019]

I see reform have started a debate about the meaning of being English which has stirred a few feathers. To my mind anyone who is born in the country is English..

I would say moving to a country does not necessarily make you a national of a country e.g. if I moved the South of Spain as a retired I don't know if could reasonably call my self Spanish but children of English people definitely could.

One thing that is worth debate is how you frame heritage and is this important? For instance would 2nd.generation immigrants from India would want to be referred as English but if Indian oriigin? Is there an actual desire for people of foreign heritage to maintain a part of their identity connected to their country of family origin for cultural reason?

one side of my family have lived in the same place since the 1600s. I find this pretty dull and wish I had done more interesting heritage!

I was born in England, I’m Scottish and British (and also Irish, legally speaking). I would never seriously call myself English.

TBF the Scots were greatly involved in colonialism and slavery as part of the UK.

What's the magic about being born in England? My parents are both English, so are all my grandparents, great grandparents etc. , I was born abroad because that's where my parents happened to be at the time, and I spent most of the first ten years of my life living abroad. I have UK citizenship which I did not have to apply for an a UK passport. Am I not English? If not, what am I?

The Celts were not all pretty swarthy. There would have been little reason for them to be on an evolutionary basis living in a northern country.

Why can’t someone call themselves English having been born there?

I think a lot of it is around cultural identity. Rather than ethnicity. You can be born here but sound, behave, speak or mostly identify with a culture from elsewhere. I suspect Reform would not see you as English, no.
Whilst not English, if heritage wise you are Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Northern Irish you are ‘ of these islands’.
Many people are a mix of places these days. But how much of a cultural mix as opposed to an ethnicity mix you are and still say you are English is interesting.

There’s a lot of conflation between British and English, with people often using them interchangeably (mainly English people). As English is not a nationality there must be a degree of self identification, I would think. I have friends who have lived longer in England than the country they were born in but would never consider themselves English. Their children generally see themselves as dual citizens.

Although Englishness is often positioned as cultural, culture is ever evolving and there are lots of differences for example in the way my grandparents lived to how my children live. They are in a much more multicultural society where the food, ways of speaking, clothes and events they attend are influenced by other cultures. What we may see as ‘English culture’ isn’t fixed and varies across the country so I’m not completely sure how much of a marker of Englishness it can be

Anyone born and brought up in England, and a small pool of kids of military personnel who are born abroad.

English as an ethnicity means anyone with Anglo Saxon heritage. That may or may not be mixed in with something else, but they have English heritage if they do. That’s why English people present differently to the rest of the UK - taller, fairer hair, certain facial features.

To me, it’s about accent.

Accent is integral to identifying with a specific community or group. I identify Scottish, English, Irish and Welsh people by their accent rather than their geographical location or appearance, regardless of their ethnicity/heritage.

How does anyone identify Americans, French people or Kiwis but by their accents?

What is this “English culture”?
On the rare occasions I go back to England (where I was born) or as my colleagues would say “down south” I have things in common with people I meet and I have things that are not in common. I feel the same when I meet people up here in my home in Scotland. I don’t go back to England and come away thinking “gosh it’s amazing to spend time with people who have the same English culture that I’m meant to have”. In fact on as general principle I have more in common for and more time for the Scots who are as general principle a welcoming down to earth tolerant bunch.
My cultural identity comes from how my parents raised me; a liberal tolerant MC home respectful of all nationalities what ever skin colour and cultures and that no one I superior to another.

I have a niece and nephew who live and were born in Gibraltar. Their father was born in England his parents were born in Gibraltar, their mother is Spanish. Legally they are British but consider themselves Spanish. I get where Suella is coming from insofar as your identity can be different from your legal status however I thought it odd that she refused to confirm that legally at least if you are born in England you are English.

In Scotland we have a concept of “new Scots”.

Basically if you move here permanently and want to be Scottish then you are. Participation and community being more important than background.

We have a falling population so we need all the people we can get.

Perhaps it’s easier for us, there are numerous specific, tangible markers of our culture and traditions which make it easier to demonstrate “Scottishness”.

More so than in England perhaps which is why we don’t seem to have a comparable stramash about it

My family heritage is Irish and Scottish three generations back.
I was born in India.
Moved to England aged 6 and grew up there, in 3 different places.
I lived in Wales for university and another year.
I have lived in Scotland for nearly half my life now.

Tell me, what would I call myself?
(And if anyone is wondering, I'm white)

Well I would consider you Scottish 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿👋

I was born in London of Irish parents. I have 2 passports.

on official forms I describe myself as British. Informally I describe myself as London Irish (though I’ve recently moved from London) or Irish descent. I feel British because I’ve never lived in Ireland but I’m proud of my Irish heritage.

I forgot to say. My boys look like vikings (6'3" bearded and broad) and my brother did a DNA that said he was 70% Scandinavian....

Erm, where does that leave people with long-standing Cornish heritage? They are not Anglo-Saxon but rather Celtic-Brittonic.

Why would the English not have a culture? Do any other countries not have their own?

Interesting I live in Scotland and have never heard the term “new Scots”.
If we got independence (I sit firmly on the fence about this) and I was forced to choose one nationality (I know that won’t happen) I would choose Scottish because Scotland is my home. Not because I’ve adopted “Scottish culture” I’m not eating haggis eating and quoting Burns but because I live here my family are here and I love it here.

British

I don’t know you tell me what it the English cukture? God knows I lived in England for many many years so should know what it is but I don’t.
I used to think it was tolerance of difference but I’m very much beginning beginning to doubt this now

People are often surprised to hear my family are immigrants. But when I tell them my parents moved to England from Scotland, and my siblings moved to Australia from England, almost everyone says “Oh that doesn’t count”. I ask them why – because they’re white? Because they speak English? (They often don’t react very well to those questions, but I don’t think people would say it doesn’t count if we were talking about English-speaking countries like Nigeria or South Africa).

One parent would’ve said they were English while the other was still firmly Scottish. I have Scottish blood but I was born and raised in England and I feel English. I think your nationality is the one you feel the most affinity to, not necessarily your heritage

Do you really believe we’re the only country without a culture? Why would we be?

This is an interesting debate. I don’t think it’s helped by the fact that England hasn’t actually been a legal entity since the 1700’s and it’s been part of the UK since then. But always the dominant part. I consider myself English, despite one branch of the family coming over to Scotland from Kilkenny? In the 1700’s and then though Scotland to Liverpool. Culturally and ethnically English I think. It’s a very charged topic though as the “English identity” has been shunned for quite a few years in order to make things more inclusive to all the people that have come here since the Second World War.

it is an interesting thought though, I’ve seen Irish Republicans quoting that the Protestant people of the north are British invaders, despite family having been there for 400 years. At what point do invaders / welcomed immigrants become natives? And does it make a difference whether they were welcomed, invaded, colonised or entered illegally? How many generations need to to pass before the land is yours?

or is it as ancient left wing progressive the Duke of Wellington said about being born in Ireland “just because a man is born in a barn, it doesn’t make him a horse”.