Who is English?

[mids2019]

I see reform have started a debate about the meaning of being English which has stirred a few feathers. To my mind anyone who is born in the country is English..

I would say moving to a country does not necessarily make you a national of a country e.g. if I moved the South of Spain as a retired I don't know if could reasonably call my self Spanish but children of English people definitely could.

One thing that is worth debate is how you frame heritage and is this important? For instance would 2nd.generation immigrants from India would want to be referred as English but if Indian oriigin? Is there an actual desire for people of foreign heritage to maintain a part of their identity connected to their country of family origin for cultural reason?

In my group of London friends our various ethnicities are English, Pakistani, Russian Jewish, Hong Kong Chinese, Polish, half German/Welsh, half Grenadian.
All of us are British. Couple are dual nationals. Only the ones of us with English ancestry are English to my mind. (I was born in Scotland to English parents).
It’s not possible to have a clear definition because people don’t fit into categories like that unless it’s legal ones (British). The English are a mongrel race and the definition depends on what is being referred to and at what point.
But English does have a meaning to me and it is ancestry from the time England was created until around middle of last century. That will change as the country changes.

So long as you are over whichever drawbridge you wish to use. Moved here, born here, parents born here, grandparents born here, great grandparents born here, ancestors on the Magna Carta? Whatever you want.

It's my opinion. It's not something that "applies here". I was answering the OP's question. That's all. You clearly disagree with me and that's fine.

Nobody is English. Look at your passports.

Does that mean nobody is Scottish?

It gets on my nerves that people say my husband is not British but he was born here, however his mum and nan came over in the windrush so they were not born here. His mum has been in England since 5 years old doesn’t remember her home country but considers her British, speaks British, married to a white British man, child born in Britain, she is a very respected member of the community too

So in your opinion. Would they be polish?

Yes

I’m a third generation immigrant which according to the stickers that got plastered all over our sleepy little village by the far right means I should be diddling back where I come from because I’m not a proper Brit. Even though the same idiots over there would have me diddling back off over here. Are folk like me to be eternally diddling?

No one could understand why I was upset ‘cos I is a white one innit and therefore it doesn’t count because let’s be honest here what those stickers and what Reform and their ilk mean is “we don’t want people who don’t look like us” rather than non English.

My grandparents kept their original nationality all their lives but loved Britain for giving them a safe anchor and no one loved the late Queen more than my grandmother who she personally credited for giving her a chance in life.

Why do label’s matter? As long as we are all contributing respectfully and peacefully to building a better society for us all to share in. For me that’s what makes someone English.

It’s quite common to be proud of your mixture
indeed it’s relatively uncommon for people to describe themselves as English

English people are more likely to call themselves British , whilst Scottish and welsh will say Scottish or welsh

perhaps many are ashamed of the history of the English ? Slavery and colonialism?

That doesn’t work very well then.

As I said anyone can identify as any nationality they want. Doesn't bother me, doesn't matter to me.

I wonder what other countries do around the world? If you’re born in the USA you are considered American I believe, however isn’t Trump wanting to change that? I thought being born here doesn’t necessarily make you British? It’s not something I think about so haven’t researched it.

If I was born in China would I be classed as Chinese? I’m not sure I would but then I don’t think that’s diverse county so probably not the greatest example but interesting to wonder what other countries do around citizenship etc… then there’s dual citizenship… it’s a good debate

And, even being British is broken in to further Scottish, Welsh and English. Most English identity as British where as Scottish identify more as Scottish ime. Neither would identify as the other even though they’re all under the same passport as British. Gets complicated

Nationality or ethicity? One cannot simply identify themselves into being eligible for passport...

No they can't. You're correct. So are you saying the passport you carry determines your nationality?

Or that English(ness) is ethnicity based?

so nationality, identify , DNA and ethnicity are all distinct things ?

you can’t be English on a passport ?
ethnicity - closely tied to DNA? In some people’s minds ?
identity - anyone who claims it and many who have ancestors living in England for centuries don’t want to
DNA - a mongrol nation with a right old mix up so no simple test

perhaps many are ashamed of the history of the English ? Slavery and colonialism?

Scottish people were as involved with this as English.

I identify as British and English and a Londoner. My husband identifies as British and Scottish (despite being born in England and living here all his life). I’m happy with Englishness being a fairly amorphous concept which people can identify with or not as they choose- I can’t think of a rule that allows my husband to be Scottish (as he feels himself to be due to parentage) without denying the Englishness of other people who do identify as English.

Im not ashamed. Why would I be? England is a great country. Im just saying factually I am half English half another country.

Anyone who wants to be.

Just like anyone can be Chinese, Indian or Nigerian.

Joanna Lumley is Indian.

Do you mean English in relation to Scottish or Welsh?

Or English like British?

I was born in England because my Scottish parents were on holiday and I came 4 weeks early. I went back to Scotland when I was 3 days old. I'm British and Scottish. Not English.

Yes you passport shows ehat nationality you are and unless you are that you can't have it...

Let me bit more ethnic specific and reword the question. If French Fleming rocks up in Poland claiming to be Polish because they feel like it. Are they Polish?

I know, but I couldn’t think of other words to describe a person who is born in England but not ethnically English.

Part of the problem here is that our “legal” nationality is British, the nation is called the United Kingdom, but the Inited Kingdom is made up of four areas that are also referred to as nations.

Whilst my nationality is British, that isn’t the first way I describe myself when asked. I would say I’m Welsh first, then British. My heritage and ethnicity is Welsh.
DH ‘s heritage is not British, but he was born in England from parents who were not, and who never took British nationality. So he describes himself as English even though he is not English by heritage, culture or ethnicity.

Ergo, our English born children are p not English by culture, ethnicity or heritage.
If there were such a thing as an English passport, I probably wouldn’t qualify, my kids would but I’m not sure they’d want one, and DH, who doesn’t have British heritage, let alone English, would probably be eligible and apply for one.

So, do all of your ancestors have to be "English"? Most of them? Just one of them?

And what does "being English" mean in terms of your ancestors? Presumably, according to your logic, they wouldn't have been "English" simply because they were born here - they would have had to be able to trace their own ancestry back as well. And the same for their grandparents, great grandparents etc.

How far back are we going? Do you need to be able to trace your family tree back to Anglo-Saxon times in order to claim "Englishness"?

Why are you asking the me the same question again? What's your view on your own scenario? I'm interested to know.