Who is English?

[mids2019]

I see reform have started a debate about the meaning of being English which has stirred a few feathers. To my mind anyone who is born in the country is English..

I would say moving to a country does not necessarily make you a national of a country e.g. if I moved the South of Spain as a retired I don't know if could reasonably call my self Spanish but children of English people definitely could.

One thing that is worth debate is how you frame heritage and is this important? For instance would 2nd.generation immigrants from India would want to be referred as English but if Indian oriigin? Is there an actual desire for people of foreign heritage to maintain a part of their identity connected to their country of family origin for cultural reason?

Well, that’s you. I feel huge ‘English’ culture as an English person.

The humour
The slight neuroses
A square church in every village and hearing the bells ring
Quiet pubs with fires in autumn and winter - real ale and proper beers
Pub food!
Poppies at the perimeters of fields
Maypole dancing
Village fetes
Cream teas
Rainy windy beach walks
Labradors!
Flat caps and tweed/wellies
Local events… tar barrels, Oak Apple Day
Remember remember the 5th of November… bonfire night 🔥🎆🧨
Beautiful soft green countryside. It isn’t particularly dramatic, it’s more ‘enchanted woodland’ style. It’s just gorgeous

I could go on forever. Just because you feel a sneering superiority at ‘not noticing English culture’ it doesn’t mean it’s not all around you.

I love being English and I get involved with pretty much all of the above.

Have a wee Google, it’s a nice concept. Loving Scotland as your long term home is quite enough basis for being Scottish as far as I’m concerned.

a liberal tolerant MC home respectful of all nationalities what ever skin colour and cultures

But you just said cultures don’t exist and that everyone is just a mix of things as individuals? Or are you saying every other country in the world has a culture and it’s just England that doesn’t? And what has skin colour got to do with Englishness? The most English man I know has Indian heritage. He lives in a thatched cottage, plays cricket, grows roses, drinks ‘proper’ tea… etc

OP starts "I see Reform have started a debate about the meaning of being English..."

We know exactly why they have done that, it's because their political support comes from pushing the narrative that true 'English' culture is under threat from the 'not truly English', in other words brown people and Muslims.

In real life, a lot of people have complex identities, so making hard and fast rules is difficult, but a pretty good rule of thumb is, if your passport says you are British, and you don't come from (or live in) Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland then you're English. 'Englishness' isn't something precious, carefully awarded to the deserving and needing careful gatekeeping. And it's definitely not being 'erased' as someone claimed on this thread.

So I’m dark haired (well I was it’s grey now🤣) dark eyed and people say I look “Mediterranean” (unsurprisingly as my father who was born in the London in 1920 had Spanish parents). So I’m not English? That’s a relief I’m happy to just call myself a British citizen on the very rare occasions I’m asked.

Culture going back since before the Romans came here and conquered. And then the Normans likewise.
England exists. Its people have been conquered. Originally a group of smaller nations within one. Each with their own identities.
And over time merged. But kept distinct differences.
Culture. Food, religion. Customs. Values. Clothes. Language. To name a few things that identify one group of people from another.

Trying to provide a water tight definition for most things is a recipe for disaster. See politicians falling over trying to define 'woman'. Someone will be unhappy whatever you say - so as usual, Reform are shit stirring.

Why is English a process of elimination but Welsh, Scottish and Irish aren’t? If you live in England, born and grew up there, you’re English.

We don’t need to let Reform’s venom ruin our beautiful culture and way of life.

Englishness is based on culture as are all identities, that can never change.

Britishness is based on legal identity, which can change.

I think the issue with this is, many of those people who class themselves as English are descendants from other European countries but as they’re white they automatically assume English as their heritage. My children are the 4th generation of my family born in England. They’re not accepted as English because of their skin colour. When filling out forms that require ethnic categorisation, we tick British (insert country here). If it weren’t for our skin colour, we’d have no reason to tick any box other than British.

I think when people talk about “DNA” or “ancestors” they don’t really mean that. They mean how someone looks and speaks and behaves culturally.

How many people are doing dna tests or quizzing people about their ancestors. Up to the relatives I met (great grandparents) I don’t know who my ancestors were!

Well my mum is Scottish and my dad is Italian. I was born and have lived my whole life in Scotland. No one has ever questioned my Scottishness or insisted it be qualified (with of Italian descent). I can’t help but wonder just a wee bit if it’s just a coincidence that my dad is white….

It only matters to people who want to shut out anyone who THEY decide isn’t English.

The racists, for example.

Every person ever started off in a completely different place. There are no ‘indigenous people’ at all by that metric, as no ethnic group has always and forever been where they live now.

Yes there is an English ethnicity. That heritage may or may not be mixed with other things but it’s still Englishness.

Look at everyone teasing Anthony Gordon because of how he looks.

So there’s no such thing as Irish or Spanish heritage? Just nationality?

I had a number of Indian friends when I was at school back in the 70s and to me they were both Indian and English. Not that I gave it much thought, but they were just a blend of the two to me (although ethnically fully Indian).

I’m not sure if you’re being deliberately obtuse or I’m not explaining it very well😀.
If we are assuming that “culture” is a shared set of believes values etc then my beliefs and values reflect the way my parents raised me influenced by my relatives their friends and my friends and my experiences in life. I was born in London raised in a very multicultural area my parents had friends from all different background and nationality I went to school with people from all different backgrounds no nationalities I was taught to be respectful of everyone.
I was raised to believe that we should be respectful and tolerant of everyone regardless of background end of story.
Im aware this sounds idealistic but I would like to live in world where regardless of your religion nationalist skin colour gender etc that the general ethos of tolerance of all underpins it.

I've lived in various countries in Europe for work purposes during the eighties and nineties and none of the citizens of those countries are ashamed of themselves or their colonial past as the English are supposed to be. I think this was a deliberate strategy by the authorities at some point to facilitate the mass immigration that Blair started and continued by Boris. The Welsh, Scots and Irish aren't ashamed of themselves either.

The English are a mongrel race, are we? Explains why I often bark at people. 🤣

I love England (or used to anyway) but when I think of our unique traditions and customs, it’s not that clear in my mind. I think of fish and chips, pies, afternoon tea, castles, Guy Fawkes’ night, Morris dancing… I’d like to ask a tourist what activities or events are advertised to them as being part of our cultural heritage. Down south, tourists seem to like visiting the white cliffs, cathedrals and old villages, but I think these are places not culture

Their descendants will be probably from these islands.
People existed here for centuries so their descendants will do too.
They call themselves English because they are. There is nowhere else that they can identify with. This is it for them.

Well they should be as they enthusiastically partook in the Empire (Ireland less so)

Scotland tried to start its own Empire and failed 😬

Well what do you think of when you think of other cultures?

Mass migration across Europe was firstly really undertaken by Merkel. Blair joined in. It was to please employers and universities. Fundamentally.
The freedom of movement ( which closed down super fast during Covid), was all about, and is all about ease for employers to move people internationally into work. Nothing to do with going on holiday and isn’t that nice that you don’t need a visa. Universities were invited to expand overseas.

People keep saying ‘align with British culture’. Can someone give me some examples of this please, something specifically British that most British (or English) commonly do.