Does anyone know what's going on in Dover?

[YourWatermelonship]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cmwyzxlzxpzgt
Hundreds of masked protesters dressed in black disrupting Dover port.

They bear an unfortunate resemblance to the blackshirts

@WinterGold you haven't condemned the men at Dover yet.

No, but she already used that image to ask my opinion on earlier in the thread

Are you now moderating my post?

Oh yes. That’s the difference between normal political views (of whatever persuasion) and extremists. Normal people want anyone who breaks the law to face the consequences, not just the ones they don’t agree with. So do you think the men from Dover should have been arrested for an illegal protest?

Might be worth a reminder that Paul Golding of Britain First ( remember him) was convicted for wearing a political uniform.

Britain First leader Paul Golding convicted of wearing political uniform for second time | IBTimes UK

"Bedfordshire Police arrested Golding the following month, alleging his Britain First clothing constituted a 'political uniform' – an offence under the Public Order Act 1936, originally passed to curb the activities of Sir Oswald Mosley's British Union of Fascists, or 'Blackshirts'.

Appearing at Luton Magistrates' Court on Friday (29 July), Golding pleaded guilty but avoided what could have been a prison sentence of up to three months. He was instead fined £450."

I encountered a man wearing a balaclava several years ago when I went downstairs to investigate a thumping noise that disturbed me when I was having a bath. I wrapped myself in a towel and ran down the stairs to find a man trying to smash his way into my home. I called the police, he ran off and of course I could not give a full description due to his headgear. This is one reason why I find the sight of these men very troubling,

Not Duncin’ but I answered this up the thread.

To note asylum claims are accepted or rejected, rather than refused. Those rejected may be able to exercise a right of appeal at a tribunal. On some of the appeals the Home Office will withdraw the rejection pre-court and reconsider. Some are court ordered to be reconsidered. Some rejections are overturned at court and some upheld. The numbers of accepted claims via court process increase considerably the number of overall acceptances tbh.

If the Ho were considering claims incorrectly to allow people in then they’re not doing a very good job are they as the tribunal has to correct a considerable number of rejections at that point.

There is an 80k tribunal backlog so some claimants initially rejected are still classed as asylum seekers and allowed to stay pending appeal, as per our processes and in line with our legal system.

Where appeal rights are not utilised in a set timeframe, or appeal rights are exhausted then the claim is fully rejected and there is no right to remain. At that point all accommodation and support is withdrawn and the claimant told to leave. Some will return or leave voluntarily, some will be returned (not removed as that applies to court sanctioned leaving). The numbers being returned overall have gone up.

If any stay they are not doing so on the government’s money. It is really probably easier to return failed asylum seekers than others as there is easier access to them - being in a specific place.

There are definitely not 1000s of failed asylum seekers roaming around illegally seeking B&B on the black economy. Illegal immigrants are actually more likely to have arrived as visitors or on another route and overstayed. But of course no illegal migrant can access any housing, welfare, legal work, NHS beyond angel care etc so they’re not draining our resources in that sense - the ones most commonly mentioned.

I’m not sure why people think there aren’t thousands here post asylum claim failure. It’s not that hard to live as undocumented migrants.

A broader political and media focus has highlighted the accumulation of historical cases. Recent parliamentary discussions and Home Office data indicate that over 100,000 failed asylum seekers are estimated to be residing in the UK illegally after losing their final cases. Freedom of Information data suggests that more than 26,000 of these individuals have remained in the country for over a decade

Germany has a high number, before people mention ID cards, Germany249,000 undocumented migrants.

And just generally here
The National Estimate: The Greater London Authority (GLA) produced a central estimate of 674,000undocumented migrants (rising to 809,000 if including UK-born children of unauthorised parents). A separate, revised model by the Pew Research Centerestimated the population at between 700,000 and 900,000

The only number I see here is the 80 thousand backlog.

The rest is waffle.

It was an explanation of what happens after an asylum claim is rejected.

Yes 80k backlog is atrocious- but the claimants can legally stay at that point until the case is heard so they’re not remaining illegally.

The backlogs built up under the Tories, who did not invest in asylum decision making, nor tribunals to hear appeals.

I would suggest that the political push to reduce acceptance rate is increasing the tribunal workload as well.

I agree on the backlog, but not probably for your reasons - people being left in limbo, and unable to start living in U.K. if accepted, or moving on if rejected is really poor and no good outcomes for anyone.

People live here without an asylum claim, they do as undocumented people too. I’m not sure where the idea has come from that that’s not possible.

agree on the backlog, but not probably for your reasons - people being left in limbo, and unable to start living in U.K. if accepted, or moving on if rejected is really poor and no good outcomes for anyone

They can always withdraw their claim and return home.

The numbers sound huge, but considering how many entered and claimed asylum I’m not sure they are.

Im not condoning illegal migrants living here, but the biggest objections to asylum seekers are public costs - if you are here illegally there are no public purse costs.

In my opinion no government of any shade has wanted the black economy to fold but maybe that’s a step too far or a bit conspiracy leaning.

I would say there are many more overstayers though - this is mentioned barely at all.

Thing is though - yes there are some problems with how we manage all migration - but at the end of the day that is not any individual migrant’s fault at all. We also act not just within our national (sovereign!) laws but within international laws and Refugee Convention guidance, so we are obliged to act in a certain way to asylum claimants and again that is how it is today.

So I abhor the violence and intimidation against the asylum claimants, as everyone knows I’m active against it I’m sure. But a further concern is that whilst these groups are saying they are focusing on these groups - they are the problem group - it’s not stopping there and there is increased racial hatred and crime against anyone who appears they may not be British with the colour of their skin. This is not simply about asylum claim handling any more, and this is not a place we should be at.

It was more to question the idea that people can’t live here unsupported by the state once not legal. They can and do in high numbers.

And in countries such as Germany who have ID cards already.

They could indeed return to war, persecution or certain death - I’m not sure I would just to save your feelings, would you?

Of course they can, I’m not disputing that. In fact I’ve said I’m not convinced there’s a big political appetite from any party to really stop it whatever they say.

I am saying undocumented migrants will get no public purse support, which is one of the big shouty points of asylum claimants, who are here legally. M

I also think more undocumented migrants have arrived legally as a visitor or on a normal route than as an asylum claimant.

Who has claimed that ?

It happens all over the world. Milo Yiannopoulos has just been deported from the USA because he overstayed his visa. Overstays are on the books as such, and are easier to find,, or catch, than people who cross borders unseen.

I have not seen any claim that nobody is doing it. And if they are, then they are wrong.

’There are definitely not 1000s of failed asylum seekers roaming around illegally seeking B&B on the black economy.’

It was this categorical statement in the earlier post. There likely are, and the info below puts a figure at around 100k. Roaming is your word though, I’d say there are that many living here.

If you like to add to the convo, best to read the posts.

What’s that to do with my feelings? I have no feelings either way and I think not being invested emotionally in this, the way you appear to be and looking at this situation pragmatically is best.

You are the one with feelings and worries that’s it’s too hard for them to wait, so I’m only suggesting a solution.

Sorry about ‘roaming’ it’s a word I despise too but see it used too often, I shouldn’t have used it to reply to you. So I’m both sorry and annoyed with myself for using it.

I can possibly accept the figure but this is over years I think, and I actually don’t think it’s particularly huge in the grand scheme of population numbers, asylum claimants in those years etc.

There are many, many more overstayers.

I don’t condone this, but I did say they’re not directly taking from the public purse.

One point, though minor in terms of numbers, there are a few countries to where the U.K. will not return anyone. The claimant is also unlikely to return to such a place, as there are genuine and serious reasons why we won’t send them there. They are left in quite an invidious position of having no leave but being unable to return home. There won’t be so many of these but it’s one point I just thought worth mentioning.

Why are people talking about asylum seekers on a post about a large group of very intimidating men blocking traffic and intimidating local women and children?

Ok - I accept your point. Pragmatically then we should accept claimants are not going to withdraw their claim and voluntarily return to torture or death.

An excellent question.

Where is your evidence that they are all going to be going home to certain death?

Where have you seen anyone claiming that it is not possible?

Those 40 children who went missing from an asylum hotel are still unaccounted for.