To want a society where we just pay for ourselves

[LettingTheBadThingsGo]

Okay this is going to get some backs up but it's also how I feel so..
I wish we could just live in a society where we all just pay for ourselves.
So you want to have children - you pay for it all yourself. No benefits of any kind.
You want to see a GP - You pay a fee and get the service
You need the police - You pay a fee and get the service
You want education for your kids - you pay for it and get to choose where to send them

Nobody gets a pension or any benefits. However we all know this and as such we pay no tax/NI and save for ourselves.

Obviously there would have to be a phased input over a large number of years (like 30)

I want to know that if I need the police I can get them here in 5 mins. If I need an ambulance I want to know I can get it here in 5 mins. I don't want to not have these services because there is a rubbish 'free' service because there is not enough being allocated to them because it's all being spent on things I disagree with (welfare, council houses)

This would make everyone responsible for themselves. Those who work hard would be better off. Those who don't work will be worse off. Seems fair to me.

Everyone would save from day 1 in case they become ill or disabled and need to support themselves or have a disabled child (although they could choose not to have children in the first place).

I find it very weird that we live in a capitalist society where so many people are being supported by welfare. To me that is the opposite of a capitalist society.

Obviously there are some things that could never be allocated to each person such as defence of the country. There would have to still be a 'country charge' to every person to cover things that just could not be split. Street lighting would probably have to come under this as well. However roads could be covered by a charge to each person based on their mileage each year.

Yes it would take lots of thought and as I said would have to be implemented over a large number of years. However this would lead to a more productive society as well as better services. Obviously on the basis of a thread I haven't thought everything out but hopefully you all get the idea.

Anybody who didn't want to live like that could leave of course and live somewhere else.

So anyone else agree - no tax or ni - save and pay for yourself. Just pay a 'country charge' to cover things that can't be allocated like defence of country. Everything else is private (healthcare, police, pensions) and you save for it all yourself.

The only people who I can imagine not wanting this is those that live on the hard work of others ie life time welfare claimants. For everyone else surely they would be better off.

Stupid post op.

Marx might argue that the welfare state serves to prop up capitalism by mitigating its worst effects; exploitation, oppression and so on. That without it, your dream capitalist society would look very different. Perhaps it's a pragmatic decision rather than an altruistic one to provide health, education, protection against risks.

I know right…my first thought was ‘Donald, is that you?’

And if you're born severely disabled then what? You die?

This is simple eugenics tarted up.

Do you think that no tax/NI is enough to pay for all of the services a person needs in their lives?

Why would I want to live in an aggressively individualistic society that doesn't care for its most vulnerable?

Tell me you are in a high paid job and child-free without telling me you are. 🙄.
So in your distopian universe the people who could not get an education because their own parents were lazy and did not save to pay for such education (or simply the people who may not be brought enough) de facto can not afford services like health care or the police because their shelf packing salary will not stretch that far?
People with children (the work force of tomorrow) have to pay for not only education of said children but all the health aspects too?
Disabled people....die presumably if they cannot look after themselves?
Some historians place the beginning of humans as a society with the archeological find of a skeleton with a heald fracture. The sign that someone else cared for that broken bone and allowed it to heal. I guess you would have told that caring soul to not bother?

Hsve you ever been to a country like Haiti OP?

It's sort of what you describe. Sewage running through the streets, unpassable roads, gang rule, a tiny privileged elite living in gated communities terrified of the mob breaking in and murdering them. When there'\s a huge earthquake all the aid money is stolen.

But hey, no one pays tax (or hardly).

Maybe go on holiday there and report back.

Oh dear, they walk amongst us.

Do us all a favour ... move the US. All your wishes will be granted. Now that I think about it even they support people with disabilities. So that's out.

Try Mexico. 🙄

I highly doubt everyone disagreeing with you is unemployed, I could not disagree more and I work full time (as does my husband) and we have two children (of which we pay for). Yes I can agree the system is broken and people do play on it to excess, but there are people out there who need that welfare due to inability to work, and people who already work who’s yearly tax and NI contribution wouldn’t be enough to foot the bill for a country ran privately, especially considering the prices of services will skyrocket along with increase in demand. Let’s see here, a household bringing in 40k yearly vs a household bringing in 120k yearly are going to have vastly different saving capabilities from putting away their current tax/NI contribution, but they’re going to be charged the same price for a GP appointment/prescription/police or ambulance call out etc otherwise people will riot about inequality, people also catch illness or have issues at differing frequencies meaning they could run out of money very quickly, just to pick at one of your ‘ideas’. You’ll also see a massive influx of homelessness because you don’t want to help with housing when people are struggling but will probably in the same breath complain about more ‘mess’ in the streets. The difference between the ones thinking like you are and those not isn’t employment status, it’s having compassion and understanding for other people’s circumstances, as-well as being able to grasp the concept that not everyone lives the same life as you do nor will all workers be equal in your ideal country.

All the people who pay for private healthcare. Do you have a private number to call a private ambulance with private paramedics who try to save your lives then take you to your private hospital?

You’ve lost the plot

@LettingTheBadThingsGo - how about the argument that, if you want a flourishing industrial and business sector, that needs educated, healthy workers at all levels - and you don’t get that by restricting access to education and health care.

Honestly OP I agree with you, but it’ll never happen unfortunately. Too many people rely on others too allow this to happen.

This might be a wild concept to you, but I’ve absolutely paid for a strangers shopping in the past when she looked like she was on hard times and didn’t have enough to pay her bill. I didn’t expect it back and I hope I made her day a bit easier.

Im a higher earner and pay plenty of tax and NI.

How’s this. Need an apostrophe in the bit you wrote for yourself 😊

The problem is not the people claiming a few thousand quid because they don’t want to work. If you look at the problem closely (spoiler: no need, it is so big and obvious you could see it from a billionaire’s spaceship) it is the greedy, money-hoarding billionaires and corporations not pay the millions/billions in tax that they should, mostly for the very reasons you state (‘everyone should work hard blah blah blah’, as if the rich have the monopoly on working hard) whilst they sit on their piles of gold like Smaug. Making them pay the taxes that they should be paying and spending it responsibly will more than solve the problems you’re talking about, without the massive issues in your proposal.

Life is as much about luck than anything; being born with high intelligence, good health or a big inheritance vs being born into the wrong family/postcode, with poor genes or a disability. This means that some people are already starting the race several meters behind the starting line with their feet tied together whilst others start within touching distance of the finish line or bribe someone to give them a lift to it, running over whoever gets in their way.
Maybe, just maybe, it could work (spoiler; it would not) if everyone started from exactly the same, level playing field. So same health, same starting money base etc etc. but that is not going to happen.

Plus, the one thing humans are is adaptable: whatever system you develop there will be people who learn how to play it to their advantage. The problem is when you focus on the wrong people doing that (see my first comment above).

The current system is not perfect but maybe don’t use the proverbial sledgehammer to crack the nut. The number of people who benefit from the current system far, far outweighs those who abuse welfare. Of course the Daily Hate Mail, and the ‘Smaugs’ will make you think otherwise as it suits them for your anger to be directed away from their money hoarding. But then, maybe you’re one of them?!

Oh and in answer to your presumption, I am Mrs Hardworker and yes I see the benefits to all of us to coming together as a society. Why? Because I care about other people and the world. Why is that so hard to understand?! If I get to the end of my life having paid for but not having needed that welfare safety net I will consider myself very lucky.

No, this is not what I want. i want a society that supports those that fall on hard times and assists those unable to afford private health services and pensions to have access to a decent basic level of support.

I do, however, feel we need to return to the model that was in place when I left school nearly 40 years ago: you could only draw out of it if you had paid in, other emergency relief, if I recall (I was young and not paying attention).

If you had not worked or paid NI stamps, you could not claim unemployment or housing benefit and/or it was capped according to how much you had paid in. Accordingly I was able to get 6m housing benefit only when I left home/uni (and was effectively homeless), but I could not get unemployment benefit. I had to go and get any job I could immediately [Unwins Wine shop 2 shifts a week, and 2 mornings a week on a reception desk at a gym]. I was sick of marmite on toast by the time I got a proper full time job.

Wow...just wow. You honestly sound very uneducated and naive so I genuinely wonder how you've got into this privileged box that I imagine you must have come from / live in. I'm well educated and have done well for myself and am incredibly proud to pay my high taxes to support those who need it. I also have a lifetime medical condition that I have had since I was a teenager and don't really see why the medical treatment I have access to should be superior to anyone else - especially when it is keeping me alive! Every single person with my illness should have access to the same doctors, same medication and importantly for that medical condition not be something that sends them into poverty or disadvantages them in the workplace / education because their parents had to fund that instead of paying for the education you say they need to pay for. Some of the best countries in the world have high taxes and amazing benefits like a minimum living allowance for all people - and you know what - everyone works very hard, gets an education and is able to thrive. And also, if everyone needs to do well in your utopia do you expect people to be motivated to do jobs like being a nurse or cleaning your home when they need to realistically do other jobs to be able to afford to go to the doctors.

I don't even know where to start or whether to treat it as a bad joke, but just in case you are serious, a place to start may be to realize that economies are circular. Everyone spends money back into the system, even those on benefits. The money they spend as consumers keep businesses and services going as the money is fueling the economy, without which corporations cannot make the profit they are making now, which will then affect the rich. There is so much more to say about your post, but really it is so ridiculous, I don't have the energy. I suppose if the nation went to war or had to defend itself, only the rich will have to sign up because the poor will be in such poor health that they willl not be able to do anything.

@everynamewastaken I'm guessing it was her husband who earned the money. Her financial career was probably managing the leisure money he allowed her.

There is no way someone this lacking in critical thinking and logic could pass a university degree and manage a high-flying career.

do You realise how bad that is in places where it’s that way ? We do pay for all those in taxes . You want a society where no tax is paid and all services are private but you are either a billionaire or have no realisation how expensive that would be . Not to mention how unprotected. What happens if you get ill have an accident , etc .
I pay a lot of taxes myself and I honestly cannot grap why would anyone eBay such a society .
I wonder if you ever visited countries that have things that way , have you seen the sheer poverty and unfairness that comes with it ?

There are countries you could move to that would be closer to your ideal. Why haven’t you moved?

Oh that would be fun, Uber style dynamic pricing for emergency services! Imagine if there was a natural disaster or multi car pile up, the £ would rocket

I think what you are suggesting is pretty much a lawless society. And what do you mean by ‘find yourself disabled’? Where would this massive pot of money come from that will pay for you for the rest of your life? All these services you mention could not be paid for by a pot of money you have saved up for a few years.

Access to police, healthcare and schools does also benefits society as a whole.

Destitute people would end up being homeless, begging in the streets. There would be a huge increase in crime. Would you want only those who can pay for it having access to education? There is already a big divide between poor and rich, which is causing many problems not least the rise of the far right.

Oh, and what about defence and the judicial system? How would that be paid for? What about Parliament? Pensioners? Would you send them to live on the streets? The American system means you can be bankrupted pretty quickly if you become too ill to work, not something we should follow in this country.

OP's been a long time mowing the grass. Perhaps she's agreed to do all the verges and roundabouts too, since she's so keen on private funding.

Yes. Or bonfire night for fire brigade.