Henry Nowak second thread, as requested.

[rolloverbeethoven]

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5536249-henry-nowak?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Life should mean life in his case.

21 years is only 3 more than Penelope Jackson got.

Yes agree with her stance on this:
There is a difference between a multi racial and multi cultural society. One works and the other just fragments and people live in their ‘community’ let’s bring back the ‘One community’ Sweden seem to be working towards this policy after much tension.

Anyone who thinks Sikh's are integrated into this country doesnt know their community. It's true that they dont generally cause much trouble but that is not the same thing. Gurdwaras teach them to dislike the British and blame Britain for anything and everything bad that has ever happened in India and Pakistan.

But - the actions of one young man should also not be used to prevent someone following their faith. Maybe their needs to be a restriction on carrying a knife other than the kirpan but we shouldnt be trying to ban that. The gurdwaras already emphasise it should only be used for defense and nowadays it's mostly a symbolic blunt dagger hung around a neck. Gurdwaras can, and I believe they will, use his as a teaching example of when its use is not justified.

This was a failure of policing and the police training in not being racist has gone too far and needs to be dialled back. Again that is not an excuse for allowing racism in the police, they need to learn to behave impartially.

We used to be a tolerant country, I believe we can return to that again. The lunatic left have enabled Reform but voting for a group of tories who imposed austerity lead by a millionaire banker isnt the answer either.

I had to look up who that was

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-66041021

Men. Not people. Men. Let's give it the correct name.

Why did you draw that comparison?

This underlines the necessity of us being a proper secular country. No bishops in positions of power, no excuses made for any religion. Religion has a lot to answer for.

Also the reality is that young men are most at Risk from young men. Men and maleness are a big part of the violence problem.

Generally yes, though the pp pointed to an example of a woman. It’s also very common for women to accuse male victims of abuse, as a defence. Often a true one, therefore often believable. But sometimes a despicable lie.

I think 21 years is wholly inadequate. He should never get out.

@anyolddinosauryou make some fair points about not judging an entire faith by the actions of one individual and about distinguishing a kirpan from other knives.

Where I disagree is the claim that gurdwaras teach Sikhs to dislike Britain. That's a very broad accusation about thousands of gurdwaras and hundreds of thousands of British Sikhs. Criticising aspects of British colonial history is not the same thing as teaching hatred of Britain or British people.

British Sikhs have served in the armed forces, the NHS, public service, business and politics for generations. That doesn't suggest a community that is fundamentally opposed to Britain.

It's also possible to discuss policing failures without assuming they are caused by anti-racism training. If there were mistakes in this case, they should be examined on the evidence rather than fitted into a wider political narrative.

For me, the most important point remains the one you started with: a murderer is responsible for his crime. The actions of one man should not be used to condemn an entire faith community, and neither should they be used to justify broad claims about what all Sikhs are taught to believe.

which are these communities that get special treatment?

I’ve been horrified by the footage. I feel for the family and hope that people respect their wishes not to use the death as some sort of propaganda machine.

I do think that the exemptions on knife carrying need to be looked at. I’m sure that the vast majority of Sikhs would be willing to change to a blunted or plastic blades. In the same way thst Dunblane was the turning point for guns let it be a chance to reduce knife carrying and possible future harm. It’s what his family wants.

I also think the police made assumptions about Henry that they initially believed he was intoxicated rather than injured but that doesn’t seem to justify handcuffing a young man who is so clearly in distress and doesn’t seem to be a risk to anyone. I don’t have any contact with police generally but I cannot understand why they automatically believed the injured one was the perpetrator.

If they’d of looked at the young man ( who they were told on arrival was swaying and had a mouth full of blood ) and called an ambulance this would of still been a tragedy but the police would have behaved in a way with my / most peoples expectations. I struggle to understand why any officers instinct is to cuff an injured person who can’t stand tbh.

Travellers? Actually I think most police/social workers etc are afraid of them hence the kid gloves treatment.

Fair enough, I just wondered why you chose to compare his tariff with hers. Did you think hers is also too low?

Did digwa have any online presence. I'm assuming given his age and insistence he was a BadMan he'd had some access.

There was a Sikh MP on BBC breakfast this morning. A few words condemning the killer, words of commiseration for the Nowaks and then straight into a defence of carrying a blade. In the end the interviewer asked if he carried a blade into parliament. He said only those baptised etc, so the interviewer asked him if he carried a blade etc, again he just said only those baptised. Wouldn’t say yes or no, so that was a yes. Typical politician though. A dislike of a straight answer. The Sikh community want to protect their own interests now. So it is less about a senseless murder, more about defending their rights.

Absolutely in the modern world c we should have secular society. If people to indulge in superstition they can do that in the privacy of their own homes /we really should be expected to been laws to pander to these and should not be indoctrinsting children to follow them.

Well until 9/11 I’d never heard of terrorists flying planes into skyscrapers so your comment is fatuous and dismissive.

You are right. The murderer has been caught.

But it did impact an 18 year old boy, away from home’s dying moments. Instead of care and compassion, he died handcuffed on the ground with an attitude of contempt all around him. That matters.

No I don't think that.

Said nobody ever.

This was a response to someone who did compare Sikhs to illegal immigrants and boat people. Please scroll back and do not take my response out of context. It's in the thread.

It is going to get harder and harder to justify the exception.

The trial reported that Digwa feared Nowak would grab the Kirpan he had to use on him.

Quote here is “I thought I had to do something because I was afraid that he was going to stab me with my own kirpan,” he said.

So he stabbed him with his other blade.

Both @Allisnotlost1and @Pacificsunshinemake very important points. A tragic case, now being g 'hi-jacked' by those such as Farage to try to gain some sort of personal advantage (truly disgusting).