Henry Nowak second thread, as requested.

[rolloverbeethoven]

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5536249-henry-nowak?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Myra Hindley and Rose West weren't men.

They come with a plastic one when rented, but you can wear a proper one. If you want to buy one, you can wear it. We are legally allowed to carry a real sgian dubh when wearing a kilt. What they provide when you rent one has nothing to do with it.

Would you accept a change in law where real blades couldn't be worn with kilts?

Could anyone put in a kilt and walk around anytime with a dagger or do you need to have Scottish heritage?

I'm often twitchy when I see an all male crowd, whatever colour they are. There's a lot of it about these days.

All of them carrying knives need dealing with properly.

Ibrahim would be alive today if this had been done.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/north-west/news/teen-who-boasted-we-just-done-murder-rap-video-convicted-killing-ibrahima-seck

The police at one of the local meetings after said they can not deal with kids with knives because the govt doesn't want them criminalised.
And until they are then people (including children) will keep being killed.

“Should have, should have, should have”.

Imagine if we could watch everything we ever did, critique it, and re-do it? We’d all be perfect. The only people saying they’d have done it 10000 x better are those that have never done anything remotely similar.

They could have definitely done things differently. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

regardless, they did not cause his death. This is classic misplaced anger of the general public. It’s exhausting

Thank you for mentioning this. Thank you for accuracy.
I should stop looking at Mumsnet because the ill-informed nonsense that people come out with gets me down a bit.

I think it depends which clips you saw. Footage that I saw showed quite a number of women there earlier in the evening. Didn't see any women throwing stuff though.

Do you know how many minutes had elapsed between the police arriving at the scene and Henry's death? Does anyone know that?
Am I correct to think that they arrested the stabber that same evening, but later on?

They arrived at something like 11.36pm, Henry died a few minutes later and the police discovered the stab wound once they finally started CPR, the murderer was arrested at 11.55pm. It was all very fast.

It isn't just that they didn't give medical care.

There was no need to handcuff at that point.
There was no need to say ' I don't think you have mate'
They weren't just neglectful and missed the injuries they were unnecessarily rough and uncaring to the point of mocking.

If they had just left him on floor without checking it would have been a mistake, an awful mistake but they actually caused him harm and pain and treated him as a criminal

Yes - it may not have caused his death but it did cause even more pain and loss of dignity.

I don't know about you - but I often replay things and wish I had done differently after the fact - I thought most people would

I was going to reply similar to that poster, but I’ll just clap this. They still won’t get it though; some people can never accept that the police can actually be at fault, quite serious fault and it’s more than just “oh, a wee mistake as a lot was happening.”

As a Scot I would say that that would not be a massive change from what happens in reality. You can’t get in a pub / nightclub with a bladed sgian dubh so most people have a plastic version. I think generally it’d be considered a bad idea to allow blokes who have been drinking knives.

Some people might have a bladed one tucked into their sock at a wedding (venue permitting) in all honesty the only time I’ve ever seen one drawn was when the pop up bar had failed to bring a knife for the lemons and an elderly relative saved the day.

I think restrictions on size / dullness/ plastic blade for kirpan and sgian dubh seem sensible. I think it’s better to have clarification on what is/ is not acceptable so no one can wear a large blade under the shield of religion/ ceremonial dress.

Agree to disagree.

I haven’t heard police say what you have on this.

Yes, sad and terrible as their actions were, it wasn't as if they knew he'd been stabbed and with hands covered in blood, handcuffed him.

As far as i can see, they had no idea he'd been stabbed, i believe the injuries were internal, so very little external evidence of being stabbed.

The Police get told lots of things by people they deal with.... in this case they got it terribly wrong.
The inquiry will show what needs to change in training and lessons learned.

What is deliberate though, is the 'right wing exploiting this for their own twisted ends, as historically they always have done.

Yup. I wouldn’t support a change in the law because it is completely unnecessary. People wear a real one if they’re going to a high games, or doing those men in kilts up a mountain thing, at a wedding. But no one marches down the street in a kilt wearing a real one for the rugby. It’s a non issue. They’re allowed to be worn if it’s a legitimate reason, like a proper Scottish event or reenactment or whatever. It’s not a danger, I don’t think there’s been a stabbing with one. Most people use common sense, and no one wears a real one any chance they get in a kilt. But we can wear them, and I’d object to that being changed.

Agreed. I think this should be across the board.

I’d agree. I don’t see why someone who isn’t being violent or fleeing should be routinely handcuffed. I found this article written by a solicitor really apt although it’s from 2020 so this is a really long standing issue.

iaingould.co.uk/2020/07/09/handcuffed-for-no-reason-a-dangerous-police-habit/

So you would feel the police had acted proportionally and reasonably if it had been your son who died?

Would you object to people opting to wear a kilt daily so they could fit the loophole to carry a knife daily ?

I think what also really stands out in this situation was that they handcuffed henry but then when they realized he had died and been murdered - they did not handcuff the murderer at all.

If they police were routine handcuffing everyone across the board regardless of risk then they would have handcuffed the murderer when arresting for murder. But they didn't they only handcuffed the helpless victim

Yes most with dc, especially around the same age, ask this and agree with you. Idk how anyone thinks the treatment was ok.

That wouldn’t fit the loophole. It’s not a loophole. You can wear one for a legitimate reason - like full dress and a Scottish event. Walking down the street in a kilt doesn’t qualify. It’s a non issue.

Scots can wear them when it’s legitimate, and it’s never been an issue.
Sikhs can wear them when it’s legitimate (which just so happens to be baptised Sikhs able to wear them daily) and there has never been an issue.

These allowances have no effect on knife crime. They’re non issues. How much knife crime will be reduced by changing these laws?

Do we know that he was never handcuffed?
He wasn’t cuffed in the van - that’s normal. He wasn’t cuffed at the station - that’s normal.
But we haven’t seen the footage of the arrest and I haven’t read any reports on it. Was he handcuffed when arrested on the street at the property they were gathered at? Or was he placed under arrest and just help by the wrist?