Wendy Duffy heart breaking but understandable

[youalright]

What a brave lady i hope she's holding her son right now.

So sorry to hear that, so sorry. Everyone i know who has been in your positi9n has suffered for years with all the what ifs and unanswered questions

well you are definitely someone to make a valuable contribution (remember we must make them!)

as the poster you replied to, i agree, her family are fine and understand her decision and support her - i haven’t read anywhere they are In the state this poster is prophising

So you're trying to tell me that a woman who is so stricken with grief, four years after the death of her son that she has no joy in life, feels numb, and is just waiting to die, isn't depressed?

Depression is feeling down for insufficient reason, not feeling down because your life is genuinely too hard work to you for being alive to balance how much effort it is.

Professionals in the UK and in Switzerland have come to the conclusion that she is rationally unable to find sufficient reward in life to make her life worth the effort to her. Who do you think you are to dispute that?

Considering one of the most well-known clinics wouldn't sign off on it, and she had to go to another,

The clinic you are taking about, Dignitas, takes only physical health cases, they did not turn her down, she could not even apply to them.

It may surprise you to read that I am very disturbed about this case, and believe that Pegasos do give people a subconscious "permission" to die that may actually encourage them to do so.

But your combative attitude on this thread, including a post you made to me that I see was deleted my MN before I could read it, has almost been enough to make me change my mind.

Depression is literally just: 'A state of unhappiness or despondency'. So yes, she was depressed. Clinically? Well, what criteria do you use? I struggle to believe that she wasn't clinically depressed, frankly.

And no, I haven't contradicted myself. She was sad and wanted to die, only four years after the tragic death of a child, so paid someone to facilitate her suicide, and people are in fact praising it as brave, and the right choice to make.

As I've said, I can only assume you would think that a young mother with PND, or a man who has lost his girlfriend and feels he can't go on several years later, should have the same right as her. That sits very uneasily with me.

Clinically depressed? Perhaps not. But she most certainly was depressed, in the classic emotional sense, and displaying all the symptoms of depression.

Combative? I've just been putting forward my opinion, the same as anyone else.

At the end of the day, my opinion is simply that I think it is dangerous and dystopian to normalise assisted suicide for sadness, and that given social contagion, this publicity and positive take on it, will likely have the knock-on effect of causing more people to kill themselves rather than engage with treatment, and hopefully get better.

And you're the one who called me judgemental. All I said (I'm not sure why Mumsnet deleted it) was that yes, I do judge someone who makes comments that encourage suicidal ideation by painting suicide as a positive, or 'the right choice'. Which actually isn't a controversial opinion.

Clinically depressed? Perhaps not. But she most certainly was depressed, in the classic emotional sense, and displaying all the symptoms of depression.

A person on the Internet cannot diagnose depression

Professionals in TWO countries have declared that she does not have any treatable depression.

Finding life harder work to live than the rewards it returns is not the same as depression.

Your ingrained prejudices are why neurodivergent people are consistently misdiagnosed with depression before anyone realises that actually they're neurodivergent and life is actually hard work for them.

You aren't qualified, please STOP diagnosing this poor woman.

Combative? I've just been putting forward my opinion, the same as anyone else.

Yes, it is completely combative to write this post for example, again completely ignoring what people are telling you about depression and the processes this poor woman went through.

You accused me of encouraging suicidal ideation. I explained to you that I was only talking about my own experience of suicidal ideation from 17 years old, in response to which you wrote something that Mumsnet did not think was fit to be on the forum.

Your lack of understanding and empathy is astounding.

But for heavens sake please stop making diagnoses when you don't know what you are talking about!

RIP Wendy.

'that I think it is dangerous and dystopian to normalise assisted suicide for sadness'

Oh dear.

Sadness? Is that really how you are describing the torment she obviously felt at living wihout her only dc? 'Sadness' is surely when you feel a little bit down, having a bad day or whatever. To minimise terrible bereavement is really inappropriate particularly on a thread where others have shared their utter heartbreak.

Mental illness like depression has the potential for treatment and improvement. Bereavement doesn't, it lasts for ever. Some may find purpose, some don't and I understand that.

Who on earth is 'normalising suicide'?! What has been said is in this specifc case where she'd sort counselling, medication and support for years with absolutely no improvement to her torment then it is understandable why she chose this. You should respect that decision and stop criticising.

You are contradicting yourself by describing a horrendous mental position this women must have been in (according to you) and then saying we are killing people because they are “ just sad” - which is it? Which scaremongering do you want to go with?

you also seem to think you know better than the professionals who assessed her

I don’t think you understand about depression or clinical depression - most people don’t

Your examples of PND mother and boy/girlfriend are spurious and silly - they wouldn’t meet the criteria - your extrapolation doesn’t fit

you are just scaremongering and scaring yourself

In answer to your comment and the previous few I see above – as someone who is neurodivergent, and has suffered with severe depression and suicidal ideation (which I have alluded to during the thread) I'm finding this bad faith nitpicking over what is a perfectly reasonable opinion to hold, in addition to the positive representation of suicide, to be becoming negative for me – especially as we're just going in circles. So please don't tag me again; I won't be answering.

A quote will tag you and when threads get new posts you need the quote for people to understand the point being made.

I'm sorry if the thread is disturbing you and sorry about your history, but you need to stop opening the thread, not start telling others what they can post.

It is NOT a reasonable position to hold that you know better about Wendy's state of mind than the professionals who dealt with her. Most of the argument you are getting is only because you keep repeating that.

Seeing as you've tagged me specifically when I asked you not to, after you already copy-pasted my comment without needing to quote me (so please don't lie, and say you need to click the 'quote' button to quote a person as an excuse to notify me)...

I'm not telling others what they can post. The closest I've come to that is saying that in my opinion, some of the comments on this thread are irresponsible, and could contribute to social contagion. If people want to make those comments though, that's up to them. I'm not the internet police.

I have engaged in good faith, pointing out that assisted suicide for non-physical reasons (mental health, or sadness - and as an emotion, sadness can be deep and devastating, and isn't making light of grief) is worrying and seems dystopian to me. The possibility of mission creep, and even less support for treatment with people being pushed towards assisted suicide (as has apparently occurred in Canada), concerns me.

I also feel the publicity, and the positive talk about Wendy having been 'right' or 'brave' may have the effect of glorifying or romanticising suicide, and could encourage others to think they're doing the right thing by killing themselves.

Clearly, some people on this thread disagree, and now we're just going in circles.

I really have nothing else to say, so I'll leave it at that. Please don't tag me in or quote me, thanks.

For anyone upset about being quoted just go into settings and disable notifications. I never have a clue who has quoted me or reacted unless I read back.

If we post on a thread it is absolutely ok for others to quote. If we don't want a debate don't post. Simple.

To write a speech and then say don't quote me is not how chat forums work.

'Your examples of PND mother and boy/girlfriend are spurious and silly - they wouldn’t meet the criteria - your extrapolation doesn’t fit'

Exactly. Pnd is an entirely treatable condition. I've no idea how anyone can even think that losing a girlfriend is comparable to losing an only child either.

I said earlier on this thread I wonder why the publicity but it is absolutely clear thet Wendy Duffy needed to be heard otherwise some would think she was 'sad' and judge her harshly that she just hadn't tried hard enough.

Great 👍

Well said and to @OtterlyAstounding nobody is glorifying or saying suicide is a positive thing

on the contrary all I’ve seen is posters saying it’s a desperately sad and heartbreaking situation

Because someone has had my comment deleted again (god knows why), I'd ask you to stop tagging and quoting me deliberately when I've asked you to stop. It's not a good look, frankly.

@OtterlyAstounding ita a very effective technique to silence people. Had it happen to me on another thread when I said absolutely nothing of note.

It is beyond ironic thst a pp is asking people not to quote them, whilst quoting others.

Fortunately most of us have stuck to the topic and debated politely on what is a very sensitive subject. I really think on threads like this we should remember we are talking about tragedy, real people and bereavement not just a story in the news.

No. That's really not comparable. When someone asked me to stop engaging with them, I stopped (until they engaged me again.)

So if pp asked me not to quote them, I wouldn't. It's simply good manners.

You are unreasonable to think you can write what you like and then simply declare you'd like not be challenged on it. It's not bad manners that people are quoting you, it's accountability for your words.

Then complain about what I'm saying without quoting me? I've made posts, been challenged, and engaged in detail – and now I'm done engaging as the discussion is going in circles and it's unhelpful to my mental health.

So by all means, disagree with me (I guess we'll have to agree to disagree), and continue the conversation on with whoever else wants to discuss the issues, but please stop deliberately tagging me in after I've politely requested you stop.

Turn your notifications off or leave the thread. You don't get to dictate other people's right to reply on a public forum that you have actively engaged in.

Your words have consequences - if you want to avoid them then you must take actions towards that, aside from expecting others to behave as you wish.

Absolutely this

nobody is tagging you - I’m responding to quotes - I don’t even look at who posted it - I’m engaging with the arguments - don’t put them up if you don’t want responses

@OtterlyAstounding

don't put comments up if you don’t want them responded to - this is a discussion forum

I don’t even look who at who posted I just respond to the comment

Absolutely this. I've had a lot of health issues and problems over the past decade which started when I had a head injury and post concussion syndrome before being injured permanently by an off label antipsychotic. It gave me a neurological involuntary movement disorder called tardive dyskinesia that is a bit like Tourette's and Parkinson's disease combined 💔

So, my body has failed me a lot already. Many times I have struggled to feel like I want to carry on, but the fact it would devastate and impact my children the most, is probably the main reason I don't do anything seriously about it.

When I was in the throes of terrible post concussion syndrome, I remember my 'Alzheimer's moment' when I looked at a street across my road and didn't recognise it at all. At that point, I think I promised myself that if I ended up with dementia, I'd look into assisted dying.

My brain is the bane of my life, and when all my movement disorder, perimenopause, and post concussion symptoms flare up together, I think the appeal of a way out becomes stronger.

I'm generally in favour of people having control over the end of their life if the physical or mental pain becomes too much.