Wendy Duffy heart breaking but understandable

[youalright]

What a brave lady i hope she's holding her son right now.

I agree, actually. I’d not thought about it in that way.

Your thinking is completely irrational and disconnected.

Viewing suicide as a negative is about life, not about death, and most certainly isn't 'immature' or 'underdeveloped'. Everyone dies eventually, after all - it's unavoidable and natural. But before that, people have the fleeting opportunity to live, and to glorify cutting that life short due to sadness, grief, or depression, is an unhealthy attitude to have.

Where do we draw the line? Should anyone suffering from depression who presents as suicidal be supported in killing themselves without any attempt to improve their life? As after all, it's up to them, in your view, and it's self-centred and selfish to do otherwise.

Don’t put words in my mouth to suit your own narrative. Where did I say I was ok with that, or even that it was brave?

I am well aware that four years is no time at all, I’m 17 years down the line of a very similar loss. Neither you, nor I, have the right to say she should have lived or died.

You do not get to put a timeline on how many years she should suffer any more than I get to say what is an acceptable timeline of suffering before you give up and decide to die by suicide.

She had the right to decide. Many people with depression choose to end their life. I may not agree with it, but it is their choice.

Is it better to force someone to live a life of suffering when they’ve reached their limit in the hope that their life might one day improve just because it suits your beliefs and values?

It is not an option I would choose, but I’m not arrogant enough to think that I understand how they are feeling and that I know their own circumstances better than they do.

Yes, I agree. People have the right to an assisted death if that is their choice.

To be honest, it's very unlikely to become law in this country, unfortunately, as the House of Lords talked it out this time and will no doubt talk it out again. People will need to go to Switzerland if they choose an assisted death and I think they should have that right.

I didn't put words in your mouth. I said 'if' you do. So if you don't think it's brave, then there's no need for you to be offended.

I feel as though the people in favour of this woman paying a company to enable her to kill herself are looking at it from a very narrow, individual view. Whereas most of those of us who have concerns are worried about the broader effect of normalising suicide on society, using Canada as an example, and also discussing how people seem to be glorifying suicide in an irresponsible way.

It's interesting that by your standards, you think that, for instance, a young mother who has suffered from severe PND for two years should be allowed to pay a company to enable her to kill herself, and that must be the right decision.

Because, according to what you've said, every depressed person who wants to die knows their circumstances better than other people do, and there's no 'acceptable timeline for suffering', so they should allowed to have a company enable their suicide whenever they request it.

Personally, I don't think that makes for a healthy society.

I’m not offended at all.

Your PND example doesn’t quite fit as a comparison, but after four years of medication/therapy I would expect to see some improvement in symptoms, and if there hadn’t been or symptoms had worsened, then I would have expected her to receive inpatient treatment. This hyperthetical scenario is based on a well funded and functioning metal health system obviously.

I am sure that despite the above, there will have been many suicides related to PND. I am sure there have been suicides in many situations that could have improved with time, and while I don’t agree with it, I can understand that some people feel so desperate that it seems like the only way out. Suicide is not a crime. They all have the right to make that decision.

I agree with you about Canada, but that isn’t happening here and is unlikely to with the new bill running out of time. There needs to be stringent safeguarding protocols in place if it ever does come to pass, but you will never stop people travelling to clinics abroad if that is what they have chosen to do.

Wendy Duffy had done what she was “supposed” to do. She took the medication and went to therapy, but the cause of her assumed depression was never going to change. Her son wasn’t coming back, and she decided that she didn’t want to live without him. People can and do make decisions like that with clarity and capacity.

Why does it not fit?

You've said there's no acceptable timeline for suffering (so however long a person feels is 'long enough' is appropriate), that no one can judge the depressed person's circumstances but them, and that they have the right to do it.

The conclusion one can take from that, is that you think a woman with PND who has engaged with treatment for a period of time that she feels is appropriate, should be allowed to have a company enable her to kill herself.

If you disagree with that conclusion, then you'll have to change your earlier statements to disallow it.

Your hypothetical is irrelevant, as it's based on a mental health system that doesn't exist. (Although incidentally, I read on this thread that Wendy Duffy apparently only stayed for one day of inpatient treatment.)

Frankly based on religious ideas - you'd quite imagine that religious zealots would be in favour of AD, because they believe in all sorts of un proven stuff with regards to an afterlife.

Historically, the Christian church was opposed to suicide. So 'religious zealots', to use your words to describe people who have religious beliefs, would not necessarily be in favour of assisted dying.

Because I assume you are using that example as a comparison to Wendy, who was four years down the line. It would be unusual for a woman with PND to still be suffering such severe symptoms four years from onset.

If Wendy did only stay as an inpatient for a day I would assume that she would have been on an informal admission, and on wanting to leave hospital wouldn’t have met the criteria to be detained under Section 2, which would indicate that there was no acute mental illness.

Why do you keep saying “be allowed?” Allowed by whom, the clinic? Wendy had been assessed and approved to go ahead. It’s unlikely the woman in your scenario would have been, but I don’t know enough about the assessment process to be sure.

Are you asking if I feel that the woman with PND has the right to die by suicide? Absolutely. Would I agree with it? No. I would want her to access all of the medical help she could get (like Wendy did.) I have the right to end my life by suicide today if I so choose - who do I have to ask for permission?

What do you think Wendy should have done?

How completely backwards. If someone has low self esteem and can’t see any value in themselves it is not selfish for me to attempt to help them see their value, and agreeing with them that they are worthless and their life is pointless is not selfless and “thinking of them and what they want”. What would you tell your own child if they came to you with this problem?

Again, you're focusing on a single individual's case, not the societal outcome of having assisted suicide for depression glorified, normalised, and provided on demand.

Under the criteria you put forth, you are apparently okay with a society where a clinic would enable an assisted suicide for any person suffering from prolonged depression who no longer wished to live.

I do not think that is a healthy attitude for a society to cultivate.

My issue is not individual people killing themselves (sadly, that has always happened), it is the growing attitude in society that assisted suicide by governments or companies, for mental health issues or sadness, is to be publicised and lauded, and is considered brave, and the right choice.

So I'm not concerned with what Wendy 'should' have done. I'm concerned with the idea that the media is now glorifying suicide, and that people on this thread are doing so too.

Are you religious?

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what is inherently wrong with not being alive when you physically could be.

Choosing to die was a mortal sin that sent you to hell. The church needed people alive.

The promise was heaven when God took you, provided that you spent your life doing what you were told first.

I am concerned with people having a god complex and thinking they have the right to say people who are suffering, for any reason and for any length of time, should stay alive at any cost.

”Perfectly healthy” and “depressed” is an oxymoron.

We can agree to disagree, I’m off to enjoy the sunshine, have a lovely day.

No. I'm an atheist. And I find your line of questioning to be inappropriate, harmful, and devaluing of human life. If a suicidal person was reading your comments, they could have a severely detrimental impact. You seem to have a very simplistic view of the issues at hand. I've already answered your question, and there seems to be little point in engaging further.

It's interesting that you're arguing against a position that no one has taken.

How incredibly judgemental you are.

I've had suicidal ideation since I was seventeen. It goes hand in hand with neurodivergence.

Perhaps posters should keep in mind that there could easily be a suicidal adult/teenager reading this thread. And that some posts here may be enough to tip them over the edge.

If it was your own child, teenager or young adult child feeling like this, and they read the glowing praise and defence here for someone taking their own life ("brave", "having the balls" etc.) would you still be as enthusiastic in your support of their choice?

When many people recover? When all it may have taken was a few more years to find the joy in life again, like many already have? You'd sooner them get it over with quickly so they don't mentally suffer at all.

Really?

'Her son wasn’t coming back, and she decided that she didn’t want to live without him. People can and do make decisions like that with clarity and capacity'

This. It's the context in this specific case that is very relevant. She wasn't depressed, she was bereaved and did not want to live without him. Very different from depression, pnd whatever that with treatment does get better. To lose an only child is very different to treatable mental health issues.

I feel as though the people in favour of this woman paying a company to enable her to kill herself are looking at it from a very narrow, individual view. Whereas most of those of us who have concerns are worried about the broader effect of normalising suicide on society

I couldn't agree more, @OtterlyAstounding, and while it's understandable up to a point when those who've been through traumas think largely of themselves, lawmakers have a broader responsibility

It all reminds me of the discussions about abortion on here - and yes I support that too within legal perameters - where one of the "As early as possible, as late as necessary" posters pushed it to the point where they actually advocated infanticide "as long as it's done very early in life"
Not surprisingly it was deleted, but it served as an interesting illustration of just how far some are prepared to extend this sort of thing, and of the dangers of allowing them free reign

Typo

This is a very measured debate. We aren't promoting anything. This sad case has been all over the media of course it will be discussed here too.

At 54 she's has a good crack of the whip and has life context and understanding that much younger people don't

I fully support her and am thankful that somewhere exists with that safe option for her to die with safety and dignity not swallowing pills and hoping for the best.

I've watched a loved one slowly die and I wouldn't wish it on anyone it was a disgrace.

@Gloriia agree and shes older and has perspective probably seen older parents and knows what is coming for her.

Yes, I get it I really do. No amount of therapy or meds would help me cope with losing a dc.
We can all hope people may find joy and hope again while understanding absolutely that for some it is impossible.