Why do so many people seem to think porn is OK?

[CurlewKate]

I want to make it clear that I have no problem with masturbation. But there is no way of knowing whether the people involved in making porn are fully consenting and properly paid. Obviously some are. But many are trafficked, exploited and coerced and it’s impossible to tell the difference. So why condone it? I know people will say that there have always been erotic images. Of course there have. But there is a big difference between a cave painting or some 19th century etchings or the erotic writing I enjoy and the online porn which has flooded the internet for the past 50ish years.

Porn is gross, the people that participate in it are mostly unattractive and the sex styles they use are dehumanising and look uncomfortable to say the least. There is nothing attractive about a man knocking one off in the bathroom whilst watching truly degrading behaviour either. I think sex has lost all meaning and unfortunately in today's society fetishes have become so widespread and normalised that they aren't just kept for the extremists. It leaks into all mainstream media and actually sickens me that I have a son who most probably will expose himself to the horrific standards of women in porn. And as you mentioned the women who are trafficked are victims, many underage and drugged. As a society we shouldn't just turn a blind eye or buy into something so glaringly immoral

The people who condone it use it themselves or just don't know enough about it to see it as exploitative.

They're sometimes more likely to be anti porn because it makes them feel inadequate and their partner tries to get them to do Porno type sex moves they're not comfortable with. Or the guy can't get off without porn. So it's often from a more personal perspective. Like how it's affecting my relationship rather than how it's affecting the women featured in the porn?

I'm not sure really. I kind of accept that a lot of men kind of need visual stimulus to masturbate. And that masturbation is ultimately private. But no good has ever come of being addicted to porn. So that's why I totally avoid it. Even as a woman I feel I'll get sucked into a rabbit hole.

I can’t stand the hypocrisy. The vast majority of us are against the objectifying of women (or indeed, men). Yet there is nothing more objectifying than wanking over a woman’s body. Posters on here conflate porn and masturbation. Those of us who are anti-porn are made out to be Mary Whitehouse type prudes.

The pro-porn brigade would understandably be horrified if a co-worker told them they had nice tits, but don’t see anything wrong in wanking over somebody else’s. I guess in their minds objectification is fair game behind closed doors.

I hope it because they don’t realise how many people in it are trafficked, exploited etc, but sadly I think it’s that they just want to watch it and don’t care. People are selfish and will generally convince themselves that anything they want to do is ok. Humans are very good at justifying what suits them.

I have produced pornography and published it. I'm not exploited, I'm not under paid and I did it consensually.
If anything I'm exploiting the stupid men that enjoy it and pay for it. Sex work can be a legitimate way of making money. Unfortunately, there is some pornography that is exploitative and made without people's consent. For those who do it legitimately then there is nothing wrong with it.

So how is it possible to tell the difference between “legitimate” porn and illegitimate?

And those saying men need it to masturbate, how did they manage before the internet?

Exactly . Poor men. They need it to wank so they must have it…

Personally -
I understand when some women don’t like porn that is exploitative, etc.
but, vast majority object to it because they think that is a man masturbates to a picture of another woman he would be doing it in real life, given a chance. Or that they won’t be attracted to women that are not as perfect as young models on screen.

But these discussions never go anywhere.
I believe women have a right to do what they want with their bodies. If it is to sell porn - other women aren’t to judge them, as threatened by it as they may be.
Men who want to cheat will cheat. Porn or not.

i’d be interested to see evidence for your belief that most women object to porn because they feel threatened. And also evidence that women in porn are exercising their right to bodily autonomy, and not exploited or trafficked or coerced.

Male entitlement to women’s bodies that eventually morphs into an inability to get it up for a real life sexual encounter.

Pathetic.

That doesn’t explain why so many women are porn apologists…

They’re scared to be alone. Men won’t stop watching so it’s put up with it or be single. Men are told they need it, it’s normal, it’s healthy, the women involved love it, so they watch it. Women are told they’ve no choice, that all men watch it, this is just the way it is etc. so they stay.

Nobody seems to question it. Not even when the men in question are 60 and still wanking over 18 year olds. No thanks. Couldn’t think of anything worse than being with an old pervert.

Porn vids were rife when I was growing up (80's) We would sneak out of school to a mates house where he would put one of his Dad's stash on 😂

Other than that men can use just an image. Page 3 girls were in the Sun Newspaper everyday and would be enough for most men. Or you could get a 'top shelfer' mag.

They’ve been told it’s normal their whole life, and indeed that men can’t do without it. Poor wee lads. It’s astonishing that they survived until the 1830’s when photography first made images available (to those who could buy them).
A miracle, I tell you. We could have died out! Luckily the availability of porn has meant that men no longer abuse women to get their kicks. Oh, wait…

I agree with this but never see this opinion put forward.

Even if a sex worker says she loves her job, the same people will say exploitation. If a man masturbates to something like page 3, as was mentioned (not internet porn) it’s still an issue. If it was a cave painting of a well-endowed stick woman, you’d have the same response, probably.

It would be more interesting if people were honest and admit that this plays a role in their dislike. No shame in that either🤷‍♀️

As long as you consume fast fashion etc, you can’t really object to porn.
Many more people are horrendously exploited for primark , shein etc than for porn.
Porn isn’t my thing at all, but i find the outcry very pearl clutching…. Human suffering is fine if it gets fast fashion and teflon coated uniform that doesn’t need ironing, but not if it us something with an distasteful outcome…..

Even if it was all ethically made by consenting adults to the highest welfare standards, what about the consequences for society at large because of the affect it has on consumers?
If you do not care about the women (and children involved) because some people do it willingly, or do not care about it because it is not as bad as X (insert other random global atrocity like fast fashion), and don't care about the affect it has on the 'poor' men who consume it, what about the communities they live in i.e. the rest of us? There is a huge amount of research on the negative affects of porn on the people who consume it, and by default those around them, because we share our communities with them.
Porn affects the brain in terrible ways, physical changes in the brain, it affects personality and empathy, it is creating a generation of males who are not fit to be part of any society that any sane person would like to be part of.

Pointless, but I’ll try.
A simple survey of MN posts will show you how insecure women about their men.

It’s not even porn specific - it’s seeing any other woman as attractive. Looking at instagram posts, or noticing women in real life. Most porn threads talk about insecurity over our bodies vs the screen. And the fact that men are imagining having sex with a younger model of us. Etc.
Any discussion on the topic - even the one that starts with the morality of porn - always ends up the same.

Even if you know 100% that the porn is ethically produced - majority of women prefer their men did not masturbate to a visual of another woman. It threatens us.
Maybe talking about that is also useful.

I use porn occasionally. My mind seems to not work in a typically female way around sex, so I think I can understand how men view porn (as least some of them).
The visual stimulation is just that. It’s not on a personal level. One does not imagine having sex with people onscreen in any real way.

Porn can of course be an issue - when overused, and when it replaces real human interaction in a couple. Or for young people who don’t yet know what real sex is like,
or what real bodies are like.

But I really hate it that women spend so much energy worrying about their men’s masturbation and questioning their relationships…

They don’t want to admit that they are part of the problem. Every man who claims to be a supporter of women, whilst feeding the demand for porn is a hypocrite.

Exactly - an honest discussion of why it threatens us would be a lot more helpful to most.
So much life wasted on outrage and pearl clutching.

Most people who watch porn could give a crap about whether people have been exploited.

to be fair, one could ask why we don’t care that the production of our smart phones is exploiting so many people including children across the world?

I think people who object to the existence of porn tend to latch on to the idea that porn is all coerced and trafficked underage drug addicts being exploited because that is a convenient front for their real objections to it, which are essentially that they just find it tacky and gross and feel threatened by it, and believe that ‘naice’ ladies are only turned by tasteful literary erotica and fine art featuring gentle and romantic mainstream sex acts.

I’ve given up trying to debate this on Mumsnet because a) Mumsnet users are not especially representative of women in general on the subject of porn (much as they’re not representative of women in general on the subject of transgender issues) and b) every single thread on the topic is full of wildly hyperbolic statements that bear no real relation to what porn actually encompasses.

If people are disgusted by porn, they don’t tend to watch it, for obvious reasons. That’s fine but it also means they don’t really know what it is that most porn consumers are actually watching (and no, the vast majority of porn consumers are not watching trafficked teenagers, violence, choking etc) and also how blindingly obvious it is when someone has very clearly not been coerced or exploited.

Of course it is repellent that anyone is coerced into making porn. Of course it is repellent that some men share private material without their partner’s consent. That is hideous and horrific. But it is no more representative of porn as a whole than an illegal bare knuckle fight to near-death in a grim basement is representative of the sport of boxing, or young lads from Albania forced to work for gangmasters on building sites are representative of the construction industry, or women trafficked in lorries from China and Vietnam and put to work in nail bars in modern slavery conditions are representative of the beauty business.

In short, it is perfectly possible to object strongly to some porn but not to object to the entire concept of porn. Most women I know think some porn is OK and some isn’t, and are sufficiently discerning to be able to distinguish between the two.

In my experience, women who don’t have a blanket objection to the entire concept of porn, and certainly women who actually watch porn, are much more knowledgeable, educated and discerning about it, much more aware of the issues involved, and much more realistic in their understanding of what a vast range of material that comes under the umbrella term of ‘porn’.

Ultimately, if you don’t want your husband wanking to Leanne from OnlyFans using a dildo, or a couple of swingers who make videos of themselves at group sex parties, that’s absolutely fine; you’re entitled to have that boundary and you’re entitled to find it gross. But it doesn’t mean Leanne and the swingers shouldn’t be allowed to do whatever the hell they want with their own bodies and that other adults shouldn’t have every legal right to watch.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to “clutch pearls” at sexual violence. The issue for me is that so much porn shows scenes of sexual aggression or violence. That might be acceptable to those who enjoy being slapped, having their hair pulled, being choked, having a man ejaculate into their eyes etc; but it’s those of us who don’t enjoy those things that are having to suffer the consequences. Porn normalises violence.

Almost half of videos on the major porn sites show violence. In 97% of these the perpetrator is male, using violence against females. It’s teaching young boys who have no sexual frame of reference that hurting women is good. 43% of sexually active 16-17 year old girls have experienced choking during sex.

Personally, it is nothing to do with prudishness, or jealousy of a partner using porn. I think that generally, it is a toxic industry that preys on vulnerable women, and sends out harmful messages about sex. Read some interviews with ex porn actresses and they recount that during their career they were coerced into publicly stating how much they enjoyed their work and how empowering it was. But now they’re no longer in the industry they can speak freely of how they were raped and beaten regularly, and forced into acts they’d previously refused to perform. It is sickening.

Agree — we’ve normalised porn consumption too much. You don’t NEED pornography if you want to masturbate!!!