Is this neglect ?

[Rainbowfish1]

I'm really worried about my niece , age. 4, and don't know if I'm overthinking.
My brother got her mum pregnant after a short relationship, they split shortly after niece was born, he pays maintenance regularly via the CMS but apart from that has little day to day involvement, ( yes I know, DB' s a dick). He's 45 and nieces mum is 25.

-My niece is meant to go to nursery 1-6, 2 afternoons a week during term time, ( nursery stretches funding so this includes holidays). My friend works there and says she's always absent , misses at least one session a fortnight, often more, ( obviously nursery can't enforce attendance as nursery is not legally compulsory). When she is in , session starts at 13:00, but frequently not dropped till 13.30/ 13.45 etc.

• When she's not at nursery, ( and she rarely is !) they go nowhere. Literally nowhere. Nursery is Tuesday and Friday, and between they don't go out at all. Absolutely lovely shared garden and play area in their block of flats but don't go there. They don't leave the house for days on end. Sister in law is addicted to gaming etc and basically happy to stay in.
• Sister-in-law doesn't brush her teeth as "niece doesn't like it ", what 4 year old likes having their teeth brushed...
• Niece is only dressed on nursery days, ( where she does seem to dress her appropriately), she stays in her PJs for days on end otherwise. Whenever I visit on a non nursery day , niece is in her pyjamas, even at 2/3pm. Sister-in-law says what's the point in dressing niece if they are not going out.
• Sister in law is very overweight, basically live off take aways each night, ( only healthy meal she gets is the dinner 2 x a week at nursery).
• The flat is filthy. Five cats in a two bed flat , stinks of cat urine whenever I go round, litter trays always overflowing. Extremely cluttered and no space for niece to play.
• Sister-in-law smokes weed daily, ( she says only when niece is in bed ), but the whole flat stinks of it.

I know the simple answer is to report to soical, but I'm worried they won't do anything and it will just end up withe and my parents being cut off
Does this cross the line to reportable neglect?

I beg your pardon? You know absolutely nothing about me, yet you personally attack me? No gymnastics needed, I’ve worked in family law for 23 years and this is such a common tactic by a child’s father (usually always alongside his parents & siblings), in an attempt to ultimately alienate/seek full custody of the mother. “She’s a crap mum, I’m reporting her to Social Services then applying for full custody” It is so common in fact, that I deal with cases with scenarios just like this at least once each week and 99/100 turn out to be completely unfounded; sometimes spectacularly to the contrary!

Of course I could be wrong, in which case it absolutely needs reporting but OP is making allegations that she couldn’t possibly substantiate unless she personally lived with the mother and child.

You’re living in a fantasy land if you think what OP describes is anything close to the level need for removing a child.

Social services won’t take the child to nursery, won’t help the mother clean or clean for her, won’t have the child overnight, won’t take the child to the dentist, won’t teach a child to brush their teeth, won’t help the mother cook etc.

The best placed people to support and help the child is the child’s family. The family can jump in and do everything above that SS cannot do. Family can make real, immediate difference to that child’s life.

OP has explained how she knows the details. Good to be alert to malicious reporting but I can see no evidence of that here, OP has started a thread to ask for others’ perspectives, doesn’t sound especially judgemental or harsh and acknowledges that the father (her own brother) is useless. No obvious motive for alienation, and nothing in the description is going to result in removal.

Exactly

I get it, it can be complicated... but it sounds like your friend did try, for years, before reaching the stage of reporting. That's the point I'm making to OP. Family intervention first. Report only if that doesn't help.

I work in safeguarding and lots of what you've described here is concerning. If this is what you are seeing when you visit, presumably the mum thinks this is ok? What is happening when there's no one around, is she being watched? Is she being interacted with?
Sorry, but to the posters saying there's nothing wrong here, this is her early life experience, is it good enough?! There's a big difference between having a lazy day and staying in pjs until 3pm, but every day?! Not brushing teeth? They will decay - I've seen this quite a few times, children crying at school due to toothache. Watching inappropriate crime and horror is harmful and scary for a child so young.
Never leaving the flat is also depriving her of contact, learning, exploring, any real experience of the world outside of her four walls. Not to mention the fact that her mother is smoking weed and there is cat faeces over spilling.
I think this may possibly qualify for some early help at least.
I'd raise it and approach the safeguarding lead at the nursery, as others have suggested. They may have concerns already. I do agree that you need to tread carefully, the danger of getting cut off from your niece would put a lot of people off reporting it, and it sounds like you and your parents are a source of support and security for her.
Even if nothing is done, it will at least be on record. At nursery and when she goes to school, any concerns will be further recorded and your input will build a picture, if it turns out more help is needed.
If the mother is having issues, then I absolutely empathise, but having a child caught up in this is not ok.

She sounds like she can't even look after the cats properly, let alone a toddler. I hope you can report and she starts to get some help soon, poor love is being set up to fail. Sorry OP, puts you in a hard position.

As a side, are the cats neutered? If she won't let you take a couple off her hands, getting them done would help, and with some of the smell (male cat pee can reek). Cats protection do, or at least used to do chip and snip for about £12 for those on low incomes. If not snipped, and selling kittens, then can be reported to E.Health as need a license.

I don’t think they’d do anything. Can you anonymously report the cat and weed smell sounding like you’re a resident nearby in case that makes her clean them up? And can you and your mum/parents separately have her for a night a week? Combined with nursery that would be 6 days of some real food and fresh air and having her teeth brushed, send some dinner/meals back with her. Say cheerfully I’ll get her dressed when I come don’t worry about a thing?

That's true. My cats (males) pee stinks when the litters about due to be changed, buy my relative's cat absolutely reeks, he is not castrated.

You work in family law and there is no doubt that some families operate like this. It's appalling and damaging for children. But equally, there are parents and people who work with children pointing out, that for all the false allegations you may encounter, there are also real and horrible cases where children are actually living like this. We can't possibly know the truth of what is going on, the OP is going by what she is witnessing when she visits. She doesn't appear to have any vested interest in custody and her brother certainly doesn't seem motivated in such a way. She is right to act if she's concerned, the child's wellbeing is the priority here.

Probably because your posts come over as you trying to minimise and excuse the seriousness of this poor child's situation.

Malicious reporting is real and I’ve been on there firing end. There are some unhinged people out there who will lie through their teeth to either have access to your child or damage you.

However, details like the cat urine and child being left in pyjamas all day paint a picture which is probably accurate for the most part. And op is fair and balanced in admitting that, yes, niece is presented well for nursery.

Step 1 is offering help as the mum sounds seriously out of her depth. She probably doesn’t want DN having around if she’s gaming all day anyway, so someone should be offering to step up for this child’s sake.

If she refuses help, then you consider other options.

Any one of these things on occasion isn’t the end of the world but this is a pretty bleak life for a child, to basically be shut inside and ignored as mum games. Not cleaned properly, not fed appropriately. Dirty environment.

Op clearly said the home reeks of it.

I think this is really important advice and I agree that helping her with making changes would be the way I would support her if that was possible for op ( and family) to do. She needs a wake up call yes, but she is struggling so this first and then if she refuses to listen then I would ask for professional support from social services.

A person smoking it outside of the house will still make a house reek of it. Doesnt mean that she is smoking it inside the house.

This is a tough one. There are undeniably red flags here (refusing to brush her daughters teeth for me being the main one). That is completely unacceptable.

The cleanliness/cats issue. That's an absolute no no. However, when I was diagnosed with a brain tumour I went to absolute shit and could not keep up with the housework while I was struggling to get my head round the diagnosis - is there a possibility she's struggling with something? Not making excuses, just trying to understand.

Some of the other stuff imo isn't as bad (jamas in house we also do, however we do leave the house a lot more than it seems they do, so it isn't as frequent).

Nursery attendance - my youngest DD started nursery in September 5 afternoons a week and she has been off SO many times as we have genuinely caught every single illness going, repeatedly, it's been an absolute joke! Hand foot and mouth, flu, diarrhoea, sickness bugs, covid (battling right now), various viruses, infections.

However as I say, DD goes every day so it's different from only twice a week. Still not sure that one is a major issue.

The weed. Is she actually smoking it in the house? Not going outside to smoke, away from your niece?

I can't bear the stuff personally. But there are a lot of social workers who do not care one jot about parents smoking weed. Others would take a harder line. Ultimately it comes down to whether it affects her parenting, that's what they look at.

If you do report this, it could end up being a really helpful thing for her and her daughter. It could also culminate in potential removal (home conditions alone are something SS take very seriously and changes would need to be made, if it's as bad as you say).

So she could get reported, get a kick up the arse, make changes, and everything would be rosy.

Or she could get reported, refuse to make any changes, and it could then potentially escalate.

It all really depends on whether you feel your niece is actually in danger?

You know better than any of us.

It's a very sorry situation regardless.

She did, but it made no difference. Now the kids are teenagers and there’s little that can change for them. OP hasn’t said much about her/parents circs but it may not be possible for them to get very hands on.

@IsThatAHedgehog yeah she really must be struggling to repeatedly have the house stinking of cat pee. I've had times where the litter tray really needs changing but I'll put it off for a few hours at most as the smell is not ignorable

Well this is the thing isn't it. It's a very noticeable smell. It's not something you can easily ignore. So to get to the point of LIVING with that smell (which, I agree with you, is nigh on bloody impossible for longer than a few hours), is she at the point of being unable to cope with the thought of sorting it out? And keeping on top of it?

I dunno, maybe I'm giving too much grace. I just remind myself of when I was struggling to keep up with everything.

I can't lie though, the litter trays were always done. It's cruel to make cats go in dirty trays.
As much as cat haters say otherwise, cats are very clean animals.

That's why mine all run like the stampede off Jumanji to get straight in the clean trays as soon as I've done them, arseholes 😂😂😂

Stop projecting and accusing Op of exaggeration.

But the mother in the picture is not OP’s ex. She is more critical of her own brother.

It is definitely neglect, nothing justifies her mother’s behaviour. I agree with the others who’ve suggested reporting this, but I can understand why you would be wary about the outcome - could she end up in an abusive care home, or would her mother simply be warned and expected to improve? Also, if her mother knows you’ve reported her, she would obviously cut you off. Having you in her life - taking her out and keeping her company, might be one of the few positive things she has.
Sorry this isn’t the most helpful response!

@IsThatAHedgehog I agree it's animal cruelty. I'm the same even if the house is a mess I make sure the litter trays are always generally clean. My cats do this as well lol they're like oh a clean tray I better give that a quick pee 🤣

It's a really difficult one this, isn't it?

Same. Those furry little knobs take high priority, not that you'd think it by the way they act! Swanning round like they own the place, not a single thank you in sight 😂

I swear I could actually clean the trays 15 times a day and every single time at least one of them would run down and force a shite out in the fresh litter, just to make a statement. Then scrat the litter all over the floor, while maintaining eye contact of course.

Tossers 🤣🤣