My parents are sleeping in chairs in the living room

[Pigeonangel]

And I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

I live very close and visit often. Always have done, am happy to. They're good company and have been fantastic parents and grandparents. When DH was terminally ill, and subsequently died, I honestly don't know how I'd have got through it without them.

That was only 5 years ago, they were there constantly for all of us, helping with house and car repairs, running errands etc. Until they hit 80 they were amazing sprightly older people who could do anything - furious at the suggestion they might be "vulnerable" during lockdown 🤣

How things change. In a matter of months they've both had health issues that mean their mobility is badly affected. Until recently it always seemed to be worse for one at a time and they're a great team so got by supporting each other, without asking or wanting much from me.

Now Mum can shuffle a bit with a frame and Dad is unable to walk at all. Last night they both slept in chairs downstairs. Mum suffles about to get food, do some cleaning and bring him a bed bottle etc. She managed to do a roast dinner for them both at the weekend, although I can't believe for a minute that would have been safe.

Mentally they are both totally with it, the house is perfectly livable (ie not dirty, if not practical), they seem OK from a personal hygiene pov, and are insisting they don't need anything from me or social services, they slept well last night and can manage.

Am I supposed to just leave it at that? I'm feeling very overwhelmed. It's just me with DH gone, my DC live away and DSis is also several 100 miles away but has lots of opinions on how Mum and Dad should behave.

I don't know what to do.

noseybones?

@Partypants83 This nosey bones lives in a different country to her Dad and still managed to coordinate with Adult Social Care, arrange meal deliveries, get a cleaner, get the POA done, etc.

I'd have loved to have someone to discuss everything with though so don't discourage @Pigeonangel from working with her sister.

Edited to say, sorry I've just spotted someone has provided all the poa links.

Yes. It's a good idea to do that now before they get formally diagnosed with anything that can affect mental competence.. as it gets very difficult after that to help them manage their affairs.

My own experience was that there was a reluctance to consider anything involving paperwork or admin or changes.. its very hard but as pp said talk to Age Concern, consider getting them assessed as a Chair lift would help and other equipment. Maybe getting a cleaner to call in once a week would make a huge difference to their comfort.

So if you were hit by a bus tomorrow and brain damaged, who would look after your interests?
Honestly your attitude just shows you have no idea how it works or why and comes across as merely mulish.

Have a chat with them about how comfortable they would be with moving their bed downstairs. They might be relieved to have your help moving things around. Good luck

Ime though LPA is very easy to abuse.

in our case it was set up, and the attorney immediately registered it. Even though the donor was competent and hadn’t given permission.

it gave them access to all their financials.

everything but basic bills cancelled. All savings and anything left over from the pension taken.

everything taken online so the donor couldn’t see what was happening. Post redirected. Phone cut off.

all under the guise of “I’ll look after you”. They were mentally all there but physically frail so getting to banks etc alone was impossible. They became reliant on the attorney taking them out and generously buying their groceries.

even when it was discovered all that happened was the OPG sent someone round, said they were competent to withdraw the PoA, then once it was withdrawn they have no power to investigate so the attorney got away with over 100k.

they actually saw an estate agent to put the house up for sale using the POA. That’s how much power it gives the attorney. They could have sold their house out from under them.

so I’m in two minds. I think I prefer the EPA where you have to be declared incompetent, prior to that a secondary authority on bank accounts.

Also think there should be more checks and balances when a LPA is invoked. Banks should speak to the donor to check they are aware, and check account activity every 6 months.

You’d be surprised what children will do to their parents when money is involved.

@Usernamenotfound1 How awful. Yes, they do need to be set up carefully.

It's a few years since my Dad did his and from what I recall, there's a section where the person chooses when the LPA will go into effect. My Dad ticked the box to say that it won't go into effect unless he no longer has mental capacity. So, no one has access to anything unless that happens, which it might not.

It sounds as if the OP's parents are mentally fine so if they do set one up, they should probably tick the same box.

Hi mom and dad

Unless we get sleeping arrangements and toiletting sorted I think SS will put you in a home.

I don't actually believe it works like that, but it might inspire them to take some action?

Good luck, its a tough gig especially when the decline assistance.

It's got nothing to do with respect and everything to do with safeguarding. You have obviously never been through stubborn elderly parents who are transitioning into ill health where the need more and more support

You're assuming they're stupid. You don't think it works like that, so why would they?

@Pigeonangel is your dad passing stools ok? This is potentially an emergency requiring intervention

Sadly yes @Ophir. If her Dad literally can’t leave his chair, he’ll be developing pressure sores too and is at risk of blood clots due to lack of movement.

I agree 100%.

I've used POA in order to pay bills and do banking and accounts for my elderly parents even though they are not mentally incapacitated- just unable to work their way through the online minefield of banking etc now, or even stand in long queues in a bank (if there is even a branch open where they live.)

It's only when these issues arise that you appreciate how impossible it would be without POA.

The POA process can take 3 months from when you send off all the forms (we did all of ours online, ourselves, for us and our parents.)

It's a 'safety net' and doesn't need to be used immediately, but it's one of those things you need sometimes and may not understand till it's too late.

The issue with this is the attorney they chose was dishonest and not in their best interests. There is no way around that other than making sure the person is trustworthy.

With a married couple, you can each be your other's attorney and then you can use friends or family for the rest.

The risks of not having POA when needed are far greater.
In effect you hand over final decisions on life and death (literally) to the state, rather than your own wishes being carried out by your attorneys.
This would apply to end of life care, turning off life support, treatment etc.
It's worth knowing the impact of not having trusted attorneys.

OP you seem very angry with the situation and with the advice people are giving you, but I think you are actually angry at the situation and scared about the future.
You don’t need to do everything at once and I agree that some of the measures could be seen as too much, I would be particularly wary of spending your own money on fancy chairs and beds when your DPs have their own funds. However sleeping on armchairs in a living room strikes me as being somewhat removed from having full capacity, so whilst I understand your reluctance to override your DPs, I don’t believe they are thinking clearly atm.

As I said before one call/email/letter to their doctors expressing your concern may set the ball in motion. Or if you don’t want to do it yourself ask bossy Dsis to do that or contact social services.

Honestly getting professionals involved will at least alleviate the feeling at the moment that it’s all sitting on your shoulders.

That's right. It might be a case of some pain relief or anti inflammatories that will help them hugely to become mobile again, especially your Dad before he loses muscle mass and muscle memory.

Sorry OP, I’m a bit confused. I worked in care for nearly a decade, if your dad can’t walk and your mum can only shuffle with a frame, how are they managing? How does your dad poo? How does he get to the kitchen sink to wash hair? Does he use a wheelchair?

I appreciate some people can be stubbornly independent but I think you might need to be a bit more firm with them. Would you feel comfortable assisting your dad with personal care (toileting and washing), and would he feel more comfortable with your assistance or a visiting carer? I cared for a terminally ill parent, including personal care and it’s certainly not something everyone is comfortable with.

you’re right not to treat them like children, and not to make awful threats about sending them to care homes. On the other hand it does sound like they need some form of support and they are in denial about it, so you may have to keep expressing concern and talking through options with them. Are you able to check on them daily? Do they have a way to contact you in an emergency, for example if your mum fell, would they be able to reach a phone to get help? There are lots of solutions and devices that could help them live independently for as long as possible but they need adjustments made by a specialist.

look after yourself OP, you’re in such a difficult situation and it sounds like they’ve been a big source of support for you over the years. You need support at this time too, you will be dealing with practicalities, as well as grief, it’s difficult watching once strong parents health deteriorate.

It's great your Mum is using the suds she can for a better quality of life 💕 it's great she can still 'knit & natter' & come to DC activities etc

Will she accept the dining room being turned into a bedroom when the stairs get too much?

it's a shame your Dad wouldn't allow more help from an agency if he wouldn't allow 'the boys' to do more. But that's typical!

it is incredibly frustrating. But when people are still cognitively able you can encourage them to accept help (or change furniture) but it's still not acceptable to impose things on them with no respect for their wishes in their homes/lives.

you can be a bit 'tough' or 'manipulative' to a degree, but there's a limit isn't there. Plus you can organise all the care & cleaners you like but if they refuse to ket them in. It just caysss issues.

It was their son 🤷‍♀️. Who else do you trust?

it went from let’s sort POA to finding out how much their pensions were. Then he quit work to “care” for them when he realised he had complete access to their money and no one checking what he did with it.

Can I just say that the posts on here are the best of Mumsnet in terms of being empathic, helpful and understanding to the OP who is understandably stressed and worried about these developments, but must also be feeling powerless as they are still adults with their own minds. Existing relationships are also hard to navigate; we don't all just get on well with our parents or relatives just because they are old and having honest conversations can feel impossible in some relationships, or even threaten them altogether. It's hard, but the advice and support on here is stellar.

But at the end of the day there are no "magic solutions" are there. Not for anything.

The things people are suggesting are common sense, useful, practical things, most bourne of actual, personal experience. The OP is responding with "well I can't do that can I!" to pretty much everything.

And as for the post from the OP that said "I don't think I asked for advice at all"...... about a post that began and ended "I don't know what to do" 🤔

We've been practical, we've been helpful, we've been sympathetic, we've been realistic. All greeted with rejection.

OP I'm sorry, seems your frustration is that you are not able to talk with your parents and them listen and vice versa. There are many practical solutions to problems but that is irrelevant when the problem is helping them understand they need a little 'temporary support ' also they are still your parents and you their baby. In reality you can't force them, you can only say your concerned and don't like to see them like this. Perhaps a bit like a conversation with a angry child. Create that dream land, I wish you could get up the stairs, wouldn't it be great if you could do x be ridiculous in you dreaming. Eventually you might be able to turn that in to, let's get one of those x to help a bit. Make it more collaborative rather than instruction/demand no one likes being bossed about especially by your own child.

You sound like a fab daughter with fab parents. I know that's not particularly helpful ,but needed to be said. 🤗

I would def. speak openly to your sister about the situation @Pigeonangel and tell her that you need to work together to help your parents. Being hundreds of miles away doesn't mean that she can't help, so much information is available online now. It may also be that she's more comfortable speaking openly with them and saying that Dad really can't be stuck in his chair, for example, there are too many health risks (blood clots, pressure sores) so let's find a way to make it easier for him to move around.

Another tip is to ask your friends how they're helping their aging parents. I'm guessing that you're in your 50's like me and loads of us are in similar situations.
One of my friends told me about Attendance Allowance, for example, and I recommended getting a rollator for her Mum as she struggles to walk. Age UK has also been v. helpful.

You probably feel very alone @Pigeonangel but you're not.

The suggestions OP is saying “well I can't do that can I!" to are almost all suggesting she does things that would be illegal since her parents do not agree.

Very few posters seem to be listening to the bit if her post that is about the real problem which is that her parents will not agree to any help.