My parents are sleeping in chairs in the living room

[Pigeonangel]

And I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

I live very close and visit often. Always have done, am happy to. They're good company and have been fantastic parents and grandparents. When DH was terminally ill, and subsequently died, I honestly don't know how I'd have got through it without them.

That was only 5 years ago, they were there constantly for all of us, helping with house and car repairs, running errands etc. Until they hit 80 they were amazing sprightly older people who could do anything - furious at the suggestion they might be "vulnerable" during lockdown 🤣

How things change. In a matter of months they've both had health issues that mean their mobility is badly affected. Until recently it always seemed to be worse for one at a time and they're a great team so got by supporting each other, without asking or wanting much from me.

Now Mum can shuffle a bit with a frame and Dad is unable to walk at all. Last night they both slept in chairs downstairs. Mum suffles about to get food, do some cleaning and bring him a bed bottle etc. She managed to do a roast dinner for them both at the weekend, although I can't believe for a minute that would have been safe.

Mentally they are both totally with it, the house is perfectly livable (ie not dirty, if not practical), they seem OK from a personal hygiene pov, and are insisting they don't need anything from me or social services, they slept well last night and can manage.

Am I supposed to just leave it at that? I'm feeling very overwhelmed. It's just me with DH gone, my DC live away and DSis is also several 100 miles away but has lots of opinions on how Mum and Dad should behave.

I don't know what to do.

@Wheresthebeach I agree this is the choice at this age. I've seen so many older people weeping through lack of mobility, bed sores that won't heal, deteriorated skin, in agony, and they need to know- if you don't get this help now, and the right equipment, that's where it will go.

Capacity is about understanding consequences and unfortunately many people don't want to look at the consequences of living til you are old, frail and your skin and vascular system is fragile and breaks easily. It's horrible but it won't go away for burying your head in the sand.

I've said to one of my relatives, for a different issue not old age- please just do this for me. Not for yourself. I want you to live for me, in a selfish way. Please help me. This seems to work better than asking them to help themselves!

With adaptations and support, they can get the thing they want, which is to continue living at home and somewhat independently- if they resist, that option goes out of the window, I think it's fine to let people know that as part of their decision-making.

Even better if you can get someone else to lay out these decisions.

Neglect of self is increasingly being seen as an intervention-worthy issue, though, so it's not true 'if they have capacity' no-one need be bothered- a lot of older people have cognitive pre-dementia/impairment too, so the extent to which they fully have capacity will change over time. The main issue is that the capacity of the state to support people is very much compromised and so what you end up with is often far from ideal. I won't start on about the nappy allowance/incontinence products, or the fact that being changed once a day isn't ok for anyone...I would just start ranting.

Hopefully they will see their own choices and start allowing some help. If not, it will reach a crisis quite quickly. Much more stress for them and you in that pathway.

It makes me quite cross that so many older people are in denial. My lovely mum has moved to an accessible property and sorted out her own will/pack for after death; she's a superstar for understanding that to not do this would place huge burdens on all of us who are left.

Welcome to another world. If they are " deemed to have capacity" you can't do much.
They make their own choices.

In my case, any attempt to help was miscontrued as interference, stupidity or wanting to "put them" in a home.

It sounds as if you have a nice relationship with your parents. I'm glad.

My parents got very wiley at capacity. They coud turn it off and on. A woman visited them to assess and thye put on quite a show.

Looking back I suppose they had dementia and so on.

Wait till the phone calls start about falls.

Sorry but this is just so untrue.

This person is eating and drinking so they are not dehydrated.

My FIL was unable to 'transfer' but had carers in 4 times a day. They helped him to a commode. He lived like that for over 5 years.

If you read the OP's posts, her mum is helping him and he wees into a container.

It's not an A&E matter.

Yes, that happens. Also some of the assessors seem to be ignorant of how dementia affects people.

My MiL was living in a supposedly "supported" living apartment alone after my FiL died but she had vascular dementia. We lived 4 hours away. Although we had carers coming in 3 times a day, if we popped down to check on her we'd invariably find her still in a nightgown and the sandwich that had been made for lunch uneaten and the ready meal from the previous night in the bin (except for the sweet!). In an attempt to get her into a care home, we had SS come to do a reassessment. On the day I got her dressed and she answered all their questions as if she'd been living an alternate active life, going out every day, going to bingo and shopping. The sad thing was that the idiot assessor wouldn't let us say that this was not the reality, saying he was dealing with "the client". We "kidnapped" her (meaning we told her she was coming for a short visit) and brought her to our house, where she stayed for 3 years until her death. We put a formal complaint in to the council about the social worker and it made them revisit all his cases!

Actually it's not.
You can't set up LPA once someone has lost capacity, it has to be done in advance and registered. Then it can be put away until needed.
DH and I have LPA, I hope they won't be needed but if an accident or critical illness happens they are there ready.

Yes, now is the time to set up an LPA but it wouldn't help resolve the current situation.

Currently they are resiting that also, on the basis that whilst one of them has capacity they will act in the interests of each other.

Oh another load of nonsense is you can not talk to anybody on their behalf. You cannot ring up what ever support is there and say you are concerned. the elderly person has to give consent.

Works really well in Covid when you live 3 hours away.

Get the paper work sorted out.

I know this doesn’t help the current situation at all. But ask them to have a good look into LPA if one loses capacity they don’t have a right to make decisions without this. I see so many cases in court of protection because family/spouces can’t support them with ending tenancy, mortgages, accessing savings etc. Court of protection is a lengthy and costly procedure.

Again, I know the paperwork needs sorting out, but how do I "get" it done? Am I supposed to get them to sign over all their worldy goods to me under duress?

Granting Power of Attorney isn't "signing over all their worldly goods". It's giving permission to someone they trust will make medical and financial decisions in their best interest when they are no longer capable of doing so. Any sane person would want that in place before they become unable to do so.

Yes, but they don't and I don't know how I'm supposed to make them sign something they don't want to. Maybe they don't even think I'm the person to do it. That's their choice.

Yes. It is an A&E matter. Your FIL had obviously had an assessment and had care in place. The OP’s father has not had an assessment and does not have care in place. The 2 scenarios are very, very different.

Do you and your parents understand what an LPA actually is? We set ours up when we were in our 30s, it’s something everyone should do, like a will.

They can get LPAs for each other and for you and your sister.
My husband and I have them for each other and our children are also on them.
We are fully able to manage our own affairs but we have actioned the the part that gives us access to each others financial accounts as it's easier to do now than when/if one of us loses competence. Our children haven't actioned theirs yet as we are still able to manage our own business affairs but they will if/when it's necessary.
I am sorry about the current situation and you are right you can't make them so something they don't want to, they are adults and have the mental capacity to make decisions. But I wonder if it might be work contacting Age UK
They have an advice line for carers as well as for older people . They might be able to give you some advice on the best way to help your parents

honestly a lot of well meaning advice and I understand how frustrating it is that OP is saying none of it will work. I have a lot of experience working with older people and some of them do not want to accept support. So telling OP to just put in a bed downstairs, or just to make a referral to the GP etc just don’t understand the reality of relatives who will not accept support. You cannot make referrals to the GP or to social care and expect them to do anything about it. What is being described is less than ideal, but if there are no concerns about capacity then the situation does not meet the threshold for safeguarding intervention. All support that they would be offered would be dependent on their consent. And no GP or social worker would say that they don’t have capacity just because they’re not accepting support.

The situations not great but both of them are eating, drinking, having a wash of sort, the only unanswered question is how is he passing faeces. But if he is incontinent or using pads, as long as his wife is managing to change him then their situation is pretty good compared to situations I’ve seen. Ultimately the capacity act protects people from being forced to do things just because it would make social services or their family more comfortable. People have the right to make unwise choices.

Keep offering support, if it ever gets to the point that your DF is at significant risk of harm due to your mum being unable to care for him or him self neglecting then at that point there would be a legal basis for social care to get involved.

Obvuously OP doesn’t need to worry about capacity so you can go in and do whatever you want but I had a very stubborn nan who dying of cancer refused to accept support and I know first hand how important her self determination was and she would have been furious if we intervened and I don’t think she would have let us in the house again! We waited until crisis point and she accepted limited support then so she could go home.

So I feel for you OP, your hands are tied. Offer support, do what you can but also accept that you’re doing what you can and it’s not your fault

I would never do an LPA it feels denying everything about being a human but I don’t begrudge you yours.

It really isn't. For those who can make their own decisions it's inactive. For those who can't it makes a real life possible.
From your comments you appear not to understand how it works, legally and practically.

Can you at least talk to them about the advantages? My parents had LPAs,, I always vaguely thought we would never need them and in fact in the case of my mother we didn't. But when my father had a stroke and lost the ability to write and understand numbers, it was an absolute godsend. I shudder to think what would have happened if I hadn't been able to take over sorting out his bills and finances.

I would kindly suggest after being to hell and back that somehow you encourage your elderly parents to make sensible choices. Age UK might be a good starting point.

What @Bridesmaidorexfriend said

@Pigeonangel can’t force any of it

@Onmytod24 Denying everything human? it’s having someone to act for you when you’re no longer able to, ie you have dementia and you need care or do you want to be left to rot? Think you’ve misunderstood what a LPA is

@Pigeonangel have you even broached any thoughts with them or just assuming they’ll be resistant?