Sad mum in restaurant

[Conniebygaslight]

Currently on holiday and was in a restaurant this evening. There was a family at the next table. The mum arrived before everyone else, then the dad with 2 early teen girls. The mum just looked so sad throughout. Didn’t engage with the dad at all, looked like completely avoiding him and off with her own thoughts almost lost and very small. One of her DD’s said something to her and she just sadly shrugged. I thought that if he left the table I would ask if she was ok but he didn’t. She didn’t look scared at all. I can’t stop thinking about her.
I know it’s none of my business but I really felt for her. Don’t know why I’m posting really, but if by any miracle she sees this, I hope she’s ok.

Nosiness is not a virtue. You said it yourself - she gets to feel good about herself.

If someone is being abused and a randomer tries to help just from seeing a tiny snapshot. they can make things a lot worse.

I don’t imagine the woman in your example would be feeling good then.

I couldn't care less about other people's virtues. I care that people don't turn the other way from women who may need help. It's actions that count. Discreetly asking a woman if she's OK is the right thing to do. Its not about making individual woman 'feel good' it's the bigger aim of helping more women be safe.
If you think the intervention could make it worse, what is your alternative to make it better?

Well not to do something to make it worse really

The problem is that just asking someone if they are ok doesn't work.

I discreetly asked someone recently if she was OK and she nodded. She clearly wasn't but what could I realistically do after that? I can't insert myself into someone's life for a brief moment and put it all right for them. There was nothing tangibly wrong with the scenario, but seeing it made me very uncomfortable.

People are so well trained that they will answer yes, they're OK, even when they're screaming for help inside because they're in survival mode and saying they're OK when they're not is just what people do.

On reflection, I should have asked if she needed help (because people are more likely to respond in the affirmative) but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

And getting involved can very much make things worse. Besides, the person you've asked is more likely to double down and align with the other person rather than blow their whole life up in an instant by opening a private can of worms because a stranger asked if they were OK.

The conspiracy of silence and mind your own business has made it worse for women for centuries. Abusers rely on the privacy afforded by the 'don't get involved' culture.
I'm really struggling to see how a discreet 'is everything OK' to another woman could possibly make anything worse for her.
It's just something people tell themselves because they can't be bothered or feel awkward or aren't brave enough. All of which is perfectly understandable in the moment. But shouldn't be pushed as the 'right thing'. Because it isn't.

To add, I was in an bad relationship once. One of my neighbours came round and knocked on the door to ask if I were OK. I clearly wasn't but I told her everything was fine!

Another neighbour came round to drop of a parcel that had been delivered to her house iid clearly been crying. She came back later and just said if I ever needed to chat, her door was always open and the kettle was always just boiled.

I avoided her afterwards. And never went round.

I felt 'seen' and not in a good way. I was trying to keep things together and make things right and all the neighbours kind and discreet interventions did was make me feel exposed. I felt embarrassed and ashamed. And, yes, I know it wasn't my shame but that didn't matter at the time.

I just wanted things to be normal. To be seen as normal.

So that's one way it can make it worse.

ETA: this was basically because it was the lack of wider support that I was scared of. I didn't need help getting out of the relationship, I could have ended the relationship at any time in reality, but the uncertainty of what would happen next and what life would look like, how much worse it was going to get and for how long before it got better was what kept me there.

Just discreetly asking women if they are ok doesn't change anything if they don't know what will happen after they've said no.

You told that woman you saw her and cared enough to check up on her. If she was very isolated then you told her there are decent people who night help if and when the time is right. You may have shown her that something she will be pressured to normalise was seen by a stranger who didn't think it was normal.
I'm not saying it changes the world, but it's a small thing to do that can offer anything from a little comfort to a lifeline.

But there will be other women who don't have the resources to get out of the relationship. Knowing a neighbours door is always open could prevent a woman being seriously injured or killed.

Like the PP who was in an awful situation said, it didn’t help in the slightest and made her avoid those people.

The thing about abusers is that they are clever enough to hide what they do in public and the victim knows they can’t give anything away. So you are unlikely to actually see anything concerning, because it’s covered up in public,

Call it ‘people watching’ or nosiness, it’s the same thing.

Exactly this. People mean well but actually it’s about them feeling good

That's not the point though.

The point is that it feels like the person asking is doing a good thing but it is about them. When you're the situation, it doesn't work that way.

And even if another woman might have felt that a neighbours door was always open, it actually made my situation worse. Even though I understood they both meant well.

Were my feelings and was my experience not as valid as theirs because I didn't respond to it in a way that other people might do? Or in the way that society might expect? Or another person thinks I 'should'?

I'm not saying never ask (because I have done) but it isn't as cut and dry as asking is always the right thing to do.

And your posts indicated that you feel very strongly that it is always the right thing to do

I do feel strongly that's its always the right thing to do.Your experience is of course valid, but someone feeling a particular action is wrong for them personally doesn't stop the action being objectively 'right' for the safety of women as a whole.
The only way of avoiding people feeling as you did were if we all agreed we would always mind our own business. Which could prevent women who did need help from getting it.

You can't say you feel strongly that it's always right and that her experience is valid.
By saying it's always right you are automatically saying her experience isn't valid.

You can say you feel it's normally right, so on average you feel it's better to try.

Fine but don’t judge people for feeling different. Your actions are not necessarily the right or wrong thing to do. You have seen that from a PP. As long as you are aware that you could risk making things much worse, then do what you feel you need to do to feel good

I can and did say that. It's entirely possible for something that is the right thing as an action to make an individual feel bad due to their personal circumstances. We can't stop doing things that could protect people from harm because of a risk to the feelings if people who don't want offers of help. Because we have no way of knowing if our neighbour would feel embarrassed or would see us a lifeline, the potential benefit always outweighs the risk.

And what about the woman whose husband sees the discreet enquiry? Or just sees her reassuring facial expression and realises what has happened?

What about when he batters three shades of shit out of her when they get home for showing him up public? Making him out to he the bad guy? Being disloyal? To teach her to keep her face straight? Just to punish her?

And what about the fear she will have felt and the anxiety and the covert threats that she'll have endured between you discreetly asking and getting home when she knows she's going to be punished and there's nothing she can do to stop it?

Will it have been the right thing to do then?

Because that is the reality of it for a lot of women living with DV.

It's not always the right thing to do. Sometimes it can be. But bits wrong to say the potential benefot always outweighs the risk. And it's an incredibly arrogant position to take to assume you know what is best for everyone at all times.

So, given the tiny possibility of making it better and the massive possibility of making it worse, it’s worth getting involved, just to feel better?

You are changing things a little here. You are now talking about situations where there is a risk the abuser may be aware of the intervention. I am talking about 'safe' situations where the woman is alone. A neighbour calling and offering an open door, speaking to a woman when the man is absent.
You are now talking about interventions that increase risk, whereas previously we were talking about a safe intervention that may cause embarrassment, or in the absence of abuse, momentary irritation.

Do you have evidence of the 'massive possibility' that it would make things worse? Because otherwise there is no point having a discussion based on a logical fallacy.
Obviously if someone does something 'massively' likely to make things worse for someone because it will make them feel good, then they are not acting reasonably. However, this isn't what we're discussing.

You specifically said always. That intervening is always the right thing to do. And that the potential benefits always outweigh the risks.

I was just illustrating that it isn't. And that it can, in many cases, make the situation worse.

So you are happy to risk a woman’s safety? You have seen posts from DA survivors on this thread. Not sure why you are determined to minimise their opinion, esp as you claim to be concerned with the safety of women. And why your desire to get involved trumps lived experience.

I know someone who had an intervention by a stranger - the husband wasn’t there but picked up on it - he put her in hospital.

Look at it this way. You do nothing - result is you don’t make things better or worse. You get involved (even a quiet word) and for the tiny possibility you help, there is more chance you are going to risk her safety.

Do what you want but your Good Samaritan act may cost someone their safety.

I’m on holiday at the moment. It’s where people rent and also have their own permanent holiday homes. We come here often and see the same people regularly. I see a family often and they trouble me. The father speaks to his partner in front of the children in an aggressive manner and we regularly see him having a beer and the wife/partner and kids just stood waiting for him. They have no drinks. Me and my dh often wonder if we should say something but what? It’s a horrible situation for the wife and kids but it’s their normal I suppose.

There is nothing I've written that could possibly lead you to conclude I'm 'happy to risk women's safety'. Nor that I am 'minimising the experience' of DV survivors. You seem curiously invested in disuading women from trying to help each other, so I think you and I are unlikely to reach a shared understanding on this issue.

I think the point that poster is making is that you could be unwittingly risking a woman's safety whether you would be happy or not to do so.

It's concerning that, even when you've had the possible negative outcomes explained to you that you can't conceive yourself of a situation where it might not have the desired (by you) outcome.

No one is going to change your mind but just be mindful the next time you do it that you might only be making her day just a little bit worse than it already was.

If you can accept that, then carry on.

I specifically said always because I took it as read we were discussing situations where the abuser was not present. If we are now changing it to situations where the abuser is present, then I would change always to rarely. Because they are entirely different situations.