Girls at DD’s school cannot wear socks because men and boys feel uncomfortable

[Eastie77Returns]

DD’s school has placed a ban on girls wearing socks due to persistent issues with girls wearing skirts that are too short and not the school’s regulation kilts. According to the e-mail sent to parents, girls wearing socks with said short skirts has resulted in some “members of the school community” feeling uncomfortable. When the issue was raised further by some parents, the (male) Deputy made it clear that it was essentially unfair to male pupils, and presumably teachers, to be made to feel awkward when girls undergarments were visible to them. There have also been issues with boys making suggestive comments to girls in short skirts.

I support the school enforcing school uniform policy but hate the fact that 12 year old DD and her friends are already being policed as to what they can or cannot wear because…men. DD hates the thick black tights she now has to wear. She always wore the correct length skirt and knee high socks.

The situation will apparently be reviewed ahead of the warmer months. I just feel this reinforces the view that girls & women need to ensure they dress in a way that doesn’t attract male attention but boys are not learning that inappropriate comments and behaviour towards a girl because of the way she dresses is completely unacceptable.

Not suggesting staff at DD’s school are twiddling their thumbs.

You seem very angry and sounds as if you hate your job so maybe look at changing it to protect your mental health?

This old trope. Teachers are leaving, haven't you seen the news?

What the PP describes is exactly what happens every time a school attempts to enforce anything.

With all due respect OP, you have said that it’s situations like this that ‘make men and boys entitled because they dictate what the girls wear’ so you have blamed boys.

I am trying very hard to bring up a 14 year old boy who is respectful, understands consent, believes fully in equality for women and that women have a valuable place alongside men - note alongside, not above or below - in the world.

Why then should I be saying to him that his feelings of discomfort (this is hypothetical btw) over a few girls titillating boys by wearing a socks/ ridiculously short skirt combo that is designed to get a reaction (hello Britney in ‘Hit me baby’!) are not valid?

My DS is, quite frankly, terrified of girls and I think I’d like it to stay that way. He’s a good looking, intelligent and mature kid, but actually if there are girls being told that boys feelings - and views - don’t matter, then how is that any better than men seeing women as 2nd class citizens? There needs to be a balance otherwise equality is never going to be a reality.

I’m sorry that a handful of girls behaviour means your DD has to wear tights. As a PP said, twas always the way; the actions of a few affect the majority. I would assume that the school has tried to deal with this in such a way that this is the last resort. But you came into this thread basically saying that your DDs discomfort in having to wear tights was entirely due to a pervy Deputy Head and teenage boys, and that’s not fair.

What trope? I’m suggesting the poster looks at an alternative role as she seems unhappy in her current one?

I’ve read teachers are leaving in droves which is obviously concerning. Not sure what that has to do with my issue? I’m sending DD in wearing the tights and as far as I’m aware the policy has been enforced.

No, I said the situation leads to boys feeling entitled. A situation created by an adult who should know better. So I’m blaming the adult.

A baby boy is not born with an innate feeling of superiority. It’s taught and enforced explicitly and implicitly so that by the time he reaches adulthood he has certain conscience or unconscious expectations of women.

Similarly, girls are socialised and taught from childhood into behaving a certain way (be nice, be compliant etc) so they become women who, for example, put up with a man behaving in a way that makes them feel uncomfortable because they don’t want to come across as rude. Boys are not socialised in that way which is why most men do not instinctively put up with shit that inconveniences them. It doesn’t occur to them to do so.

DD is learning that the actions of a few girls have made a few people (I’ll stop saying boys because it’s causing a few people on the thread to lose their minds) to feel uncomfortable and so ALL girls have to change their attire, even though almost ALL girls were dressed correctly.

It’s not a child’s fault. It’s a societal issue.

That is exactly why these girls are hiking up their skirts- to appear more attractive to the opposite sex and arouse young lads?? How can you say the girls aren’t at fault? If they weren’t hiking up their skirts there would be no reason to bring in the tights- again your frustration is aimed at the wrong people, it is not the lads fault they are aroused considering that is the girls intention by rolling up their skirts- im guessing you don’t have a teen son?.

Agreed. It is a societal issue, which is why people like me and my friends are trying to ensure our boys are brought up so that they DO understand and treat girls and women correctly. However there are always the entitled few - of both sexes - as shown by the the girls deliberately flouting school uniform rules by wearing very short skirts and socks combo. You need to direct your ire at the cause of the socks ban.

Yes, the Deputy Head could have phrased his comments better, but as PP have noted, schools have a hell of a lot on their plate as it is. Dealing with a school uniform issue in a way that they obviously hoped would be swift and effective is probably just one thing on a very long list of to dos. If his comments bother you that much, email him and tell him!

Yes it’s unfair on your DD as she doesn’t like tights, but sadly life ISN’T fair, and this is not just a gender thing. Yes, historically women and girls have experienced less ‘fairness’ at the hands of men, but there are also women who make life unfair for other women - or in this cases, girls who can’t wear school uniform properly.

It's not only school staff that feel uncomfortable. My husband and I was on a escalator recently and there was a school girl in front with skirt so short we could literally see what she had for breakfast 😮

How could you see what she'd eaten?

Exactly why are the girls wearing short skirts at school and not regulation uniform? I dont turn up to work wearing hot pants as we have a dress policy.
The men dont turn up in short shorts either.

They should just get rid of skirts altogether if this is the case and have the girls wear trousers . It’s stupid . I don’t think it’s socks that are the issue clearly .
I remember in school lots of girls rolled up their skirts but it was never to the extent that you could see underwear. No one wants to see that.

To me this is so hard to believe it happening - I do believe you but it so shocking and ridiculous to me as someone who didnt grow up or go to school in the UK.

I wonder if all this would stop if the children were allowed to wear normal clothes like the rest of Europe. I dont think other countries have this short skirt problem.

Well said. Anyone, male or female would surely feel uncomfortable seeing young teenage girls' naked buttocks on display in a public setting. I have seen it myself and I could barely believe my eyes..
But no, the girls MUST be able do dress as they please regardless of how it looks, and NOBODY, especially teenage boys, must comment or even look.
If I was a headteacher I would be pulling the parents in and warning them that clothing must be appropriate and anyone disobeying this will be permanently excluded

Can you point me towards a post on this thread that says girls must be able to dress as they please at school?

I can’t find one but there must be plenty as so many of you are repeating the same crap that “all girls shouldn’t be punished for the behaviour of a few” is the same as saying “all girls should be allowed to wear what they want”

No-one is saying that ffs!

I’ve heard it all.

You think every girl who dresses in a short skirt does so with the sole intention of arousing boys? Is that the same for women, they all dress in short skirts in the hope of arousing a man? Or is this just behaviour of under 18s?

Jesus fucking Christ. I hope you do not have daughters.

What about a girl who is a lesbian and wears short skirts btw? What is her motivation.

Dp and I were in McDonald’s last week when a bunch of school girls came in. We have 6 kids between us, 4 of which are girls so we’re not unfamiliar with how they like to dress but this bunch of school girls had their skirts rolled up so high you could see their knickers as they were walking. And they clearly knew that as they had deliberately (I imagine) worn colours that would catch the eye (and they weren’t M and S briefs I can tell you!).

It’s v easy to say don’t look - but there are clearly some kids deliberately dressing like this for the attention and I would worry about the wrong type of attention it might get.

I agree with those saying the school must come down hard on them - I love the idea of giving them trousers if they roll it too high!

It sounds as if the school haven't thought their sanctions process through. The repeat offenders probably cannot be suspended repeatedly, it's more than likely against some kind of education policy or their human rights. School knows they can't deal with repeat offenders in any meaningful way that will make them compliant.

Call the parents in every single time. Only inconvenience has an effect.

This.

All of the comments on here retelling incidents where posters saw schoolgirls in inappropriate skirts are completely irrelevant to my point.

I agree that schools should have a uniform policy for both boys and girls and that both girls and boys should adhere to the policy.

I don’t think schoolgirls should be allowed to attend schools in short skirts. That’s why DD has always worn the regulation skirt. I wouldn’t allow her to wear a short skirt to school.

My argument is that the entire body of 400 female pupils at DD’s school is being forced into wearing tights because of the behaviour of roughly 10-12 girls (the Deputy Head’s numbers). These girls wear the correct length skirt to school and then roll them up. According to some teachers on the thread it would be overwhelming* for staff at DD’s school to police these dozen girls. Well ok…

So anyway, my post was about the fairness of this specific policy in DD’s school. It was not about the general issue of girls at different schools going in short skirts etc, all the traumas and shocks you think your DH’s have suffered when walking behind women in inappropriate outfits (the naïveté of some some wives here..but that’s another thread) and what did or didn’t happen at your school in 1973.

*A close friend works on a ward for children with life limiting illnesses. She sat with a family last week who lost their child to cancer. THAT is overwhelming. In this context, a teacher having to call a parent because Amelia wore the wrong skirt to school..doesn’t quite scream overwhelm to me. But I know on MN teachers are the Hardest Working Professionals so I’ll get my flame retardant coat at this point!

Ok i think that specific policy at your specific daughter’s school is fair. Ok?

Wearing trousers to school doesn't scream overwhelm to me. Boys seem to cope with it, do you think girls can't cope with what is the norm for boys?

They haven’t introduced a trousers for girls rule at DD’s school but if they did, I imagine most of the girls would comply. Just as they have with the new tights rule. Doubt they’d feel overwhelmed.

It's just a saying when someone is showing off the intimate parts.

Oh dear

OP I’m interested to know why you think girls and women wear short skirts? Of all sexualities.