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Mischance · 03/01/2026 17:34

1dayatatime · 03/01/2026 14:59

Yep - that neatly and accurately sums it up. Still there will be many defending it on the basis of "culture ".

Well fuck culture .......

1dayatatime · 03/01/2026 18:35

Mischance · 03/01/2026 17:34

Well fuck culture .......

Well then you'll be called racist...

Sirzy · 03/01/2026 18:39

1dayatatime · 03/01/2026 18:35

Well then you'll be called racist...

Why is it racist to question why some cultural norms continue without question? If people didn’t question nothing would ever change.

Not on the scale of circumcision but I question why cultures encourage ear piercings in babies. I can fully respect other aspects of those cultures while still questioning those that I feel are unnecessary

Mischance · 03/01/2026 19:03

Not racist. This is not to do with race. It pertains to anyone of any race who mutilates babies. "Culture" is no excuse for GBH.

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 19:16

The elephant in the room is ofc, as pps have indicated, that there would be huge protests from Muslims & Jews if this happened. It's an issue on the fault line between religion, children's rights & parental rights & sadly I don't see our government going there.

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 19:25

Some interesting points about the Jewish ceremony of Brit Milah : from Wiki but have links to external sources

Brit milah is considered among the most important and central commandments in Judaism, and the rite has played a central role in Jewish history and civilization. The Talmud, when discussing the importance of brit milah, considers it equal to all other mitzvot (commandments).[3] Abraham's descendants who voluntarily fail to undergo brit milah, barring extraordinary circumstances, are believed to suffer Kareth,[4] which, in Jewish theology, the extinction of the soul and denial of a share in the World to Come.[5][6][7][8] The brit is understood by Jews to signify acceptance into the ongoing covenant between God and the Jewish people,[9] which is why gerim undergo a form of brit to finalize conversion.

Historical conflicts between Jews and European civilizations have occurred several times over brit milah, including multiple campaigns of Jewish ethnic, cultural, and religious persecution, with subsequent bans and restrictions on the practice as an attempted means of forceful assimilation, conversion, and ethnocide, most famously in the Maccabean Revolt by the Seleucid Empire.[8][10][11] "In Jewish history, the banning of circumcision (brit milah) has historically been a first step toward more extreme and violent forms of persecution".[11] These periods have generally been linked to suppression of Jewish religious, ethnic, and cultural identity and subsequent "punishment at the hands of government authorities for engaging in circumcision".[10] The Maccabee victory in the Maccabean Revolt—ending the prohibition against circumcision—is celebrated in Hanukkah.[8][12] Circumcision rates are near-universal among Jews.[13]

The Talmud explicitly instructs that a boy must not be circumcised if he had two brothers who died due to complications arising from their circumcisions,[47] and Maimonides says that this excluded paternal half-brothers. This may be due to a concern about hemophilia.[47]

An Israeli study found a high rate of urinary tract infections if the bandage is left on too long.[48]

If the child is born prematurely or has other serious medical problems, the brit milah will be postponed until the doctors and mohel deem the child strong enough for his foreskin to be surgically removed.

Circumcision for the dead
edit
According to Halacha, a baby who dies before they had time to circumcise him must be circumcised before burial. Several reasons were given for this commandment.[50] Some have written that there is no need for this circumcision.

Anesthetic
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Most prominent acharonim rule that the mitzvah of brit milah lies in the pain it causes, and anesthetic, sedation, or ointment should generally not be used.[51] However, it is traditionally common to feed the infant a drop of wine or other sweet liquid to soothe him.[52]

Eliezer Waldenberg, Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg, Shmuel Wosner, Moshe Feinstein and others agree that the child should not be sedated, although pain relieving ointment may be used under certain conditions; Shmuel Wosner particularly asserts that the act ought to be painful, per Psalm 44:23.[51]

In a letter to the editor published in The New York Times on January 3, 1998, Rabbi Moshe David Tendler disagrees with the above and writes, "It is a biblical prohibition to cause anyone unnecessary pain." Rabbi Tendler recommends the use of an analgesic cream.[53] However, lidocaine should not be used because it has been linked to several pediatric near-death episodes.[54][55]

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 19:28

I think 2 key points from that are that in the terrible history of Jewish persecution, circumcision bans have a prominent role. These bans would ofc be for child welfare, not anti Semitism, but the painful associations are another part of the maelstrom.

Another is that the commandment is seen as central. Therefore it's harder to change than something like having women as rabbis, where there's more wiggle room in the text.

IcedPurple · 03/01/2026 19:33

IncessantNameChanger · 02/01/2026 14:14

Never really understand how this is still legal when you look at it next to FGM, although I understand that FGM is very different.

FGM can be horrific, but there are also relatively mild versions which consist of little more than a 'symbolic' nick of the genitals.

All genital mutliation of male and female children should be outlawed unless done for medical reasons. There's nothing stopping the child voluntarily undergoing such procedures when they're of an age to consent.

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 19:37

Biblically, the infant's father (avi haben) is commanded to perform the circumcision himself.[citation needed] However, as most fathers are not comfortable or do not have the training, they designate a mohel or mohelet. Mohalim are specially trained in circumcision and the rituals surrounding the procedure. Many mohalim are doctors or rabbis (some are both) or cantors, and today are required to receive appropriate training, both religious and medical.

Traditionally, mohalim use a scalpel to circumcise the newborn. Today, doctors and some non-Orthodox mohalim use a perforating clamp before they cut the skin. The clamp makes it easier to be precise and shortens recovery time. Orthodox mohalim have rejected perforating clamps, arguing that by crushing and killing the skin it causes a great amount of unnecessary pain to the newborn, cutting off the blood flow completely, which according to Jewish law is dangerous to the child and strictly forbidden, and also renders the orlah (foreskin) as cut prior to the proper ritual cut.[8][9][10]

Mohel book from Hegenheim (F), dated between 1805 and 1849. Today in the Jewish Museum of Switzerland's collection.
Under Jewish law, mohalim must draw blood from the circumcision wound. Most mohalim do it by hand with a suction device,[11][12][13][14] but some follow the traditional practice of doing it by mouth. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued a warning in 2012 about the health implications of the latter practice, citing eleven cases of neonatal herpes simplex virus (HSV) and two recorded fatalities.[15] A 2013 review of cases of neonatal HSV infections in Israel identified ritual circumcision as the source of HSV-1 transmission in 31.8% of the cases.[16]

So in typical cases a mohel will have appropriate medical training, or may actually be a doctor.

It IS rare for things to be done by a backstreet circumciser as happened with the poor baby a few days ago 😢.

But medical issues remain...the rejection of the perforating clamp by Orthodox mohels sounds questionable.

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 19:45

IcedPurple · 03/01/2026 19:33

FGM can be horrific, but there are also relatively mild versions which consist of little more than a 'symbolic' nick of the genitals.

All genital mutliation of male and female children should be outlawed unless done for medical reasons. There's nothing stopping the child voluntarily undergoing such procedures when they're of an age to consent.

That's true, that's Type 4.

Type 1 & 2 are the most common though and they are not like that.

Type I (clitoridectomy) involves the partial or total removal of the prepuce and/or the clitoral gland. Type II involves the partial or total removal of the labia minora and clitoral glans without the excision of the labia majora.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9436112/#:~:text=These%20studies%20included%20data%20from,global%20prevalence%20of%20FGM/C.

PennyLaneisinmyheartandmysoul · 03/01/2026 19:58

That sounds horrendous @Carla786 how do they manage to ‘safely’ inflict that level of pain and injury to such a small baby? To keep them still while they slice their body parts off? Does someone hold the baby down? Tie them down?

TheignT · 03/01/2026 20:02

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 19:28

I think 2 key points from that are that in the terrible history of Jewish persecution, circumcision bans have a prominent role. These bans would ofc be for child welfare, not anti Semitism, but the painful associations are another part of the maelstrom.

Another is that the commandment is seen as central. Therefore it's harder to change than something like having women as rabbis, where there's more wiggle room in the text.

Painful associations matter but deliberately inflicting pain on the baby? Is that ok?

Ok for the father to avoid the part he's commanded to do but ok to obey the bit for the baby.

Interesting how these things can be interpreted and obeyed or not.

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 20:03

Simonjt · 02/01/2026 17:29

As someone married to a Jewish Scandinavian, its also far less common among Jewish and Muslim Scandinavians.

Scandinavia is a much less religious area generally, so I'd imagine Orthodox Jews and strict Muslims are probably fewer than they are in other countries.

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 20:06

TheignT · 03/01/2026 20:02

Painful associations matter but deliberately inflicting pain on the baby? Is that ok?

Ok for the father to avoid the part he's commanded to do but ok to obey the bit for the baby.

Interesting how these things can be interpreted and obeyed or not.

Unfortunately, the traditional belief at least is that the pain is part of the mitzvah (commandment).

Most prominent acharonim rule that the mitzvah of brit milah lies in the pain it causes, and anesthetic, sedation, or ointment should generally not be used.[51] However, it is traditionally common to feed the infant a drop of wine or other sweet liquid to soothe him.[52]

Eliezer Waldenberg, Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg, Shmuel Wosner, Moshe Feinstein and others agree that the child should not be sedated, although pain relieving ointment may be used under certain conditions; Shmuel Wosner particularly asserts that the act ought to be painful, per Psalm 44:23.[51]

In a letter to the editor published in The New York Times on January 3, 1998, Rabbi Moshe David Tendler disagrees with the above and writes, "It is a biblical prohibition to cause anyone unnecessary pain." Rabbi Tendler recommends the use of an analgesic cream.[53] However, lidocaine should not be used because it has been linked to several pediatric near-death episodes.[54][55]

I would imagine Reform & maybe Masorti/Conservative (less strict than Orthodox but more than Reform) would question this more, but Orthodox would tend to be stricter on adhering.

TheignT · 03/01/2026 20:07

The bit about the suction by mouth must surely be classed as sexual abuse.

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 20:07

TheignT · 03/01/2026 20:02

Painful associations matter but deliberately inflicting pain on the baby? Is that ok?

Ok for the father to avoid the part he's commanded to do but ok to obey the bit for the baby.

Interesting how these things can be interpreted and obeyed or not.

Good point re the father being able to avoid...

TheignT · 03/01/2026 20:10

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 20:06

Unfortunately, the traditional belief at least is that the pain is part of the mitzvah (commandment).

Most prominent acharonim rule that the mitzvah of brit milah lies in the pain it causes, and anesthetic, sedation, or ointment should generally not be used.[51] However, it is traditionally common to feed the infant a drop of wine or other sweet liquid to soothe him.[52]

Eliezer Waldenberg, Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg, Shmuel Wosner, Moshe Feinstein and others agree that the child should not be sedated, although pain relieving ointment may be used under certain conditions; Shmuel Wosner particularly asserts that the act ought to be painful, per Psalm 44:23.[51]

In a letter to the editor published in The New York Times on January 3, 1998, Rabbi Moshe David Tendler disagrees with the above and writes, "It is a biblical prohibition to cause anyone unnecessary pain." Rabbi Tendler recommends the use of an analgesic cream.[53] However, lidocaine should not be used because it has been linked to several pediatric near-death episodes.[54][55]

I would imagine Reform & maybe Masorti/Conservative (less strict than Orthodox but more than Reform) would question this more, but Orthodox would tend to be stricter on adhering.

Stricter on adhering to inflicting pain on the baby but not strict on father obeying the commandment he feels uncomfortable with. How convenient - for the adults.

TheignT · 03/01/2026 20:10

Sorry cross post.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/01/2026 20:12

PandoraSocks · 02/01/2026 14:12

I don't have a religion so circumcision isn't something I'd ever consider for my child but surely there is a way to make sure it is done safely if it truly is necessary for religious reasons?

It should not be allowed for religious reasons either, in the same way that FGM is not allowed for any reason. Poor little boy.

Oddly enough it used to be, and probably still is the norm for most American male babies ( performed by doctors though) regardless of religion.

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 20:13

TheignT · 03/01/2026 20:07

The bit about the suction by mouth must surely be classed as sexual abuse.

It's not done for sexual reasons,it was recommended in the Talmud. I think we need to be careful of conclusions about large groups of people ...

But I definitely agree it's totally wrong for multiple reasons..! It is normally not done though, by Hasidic Jews (one of the 2 strictest Haredi groups) do still do it.

More info : distressing details...😢

Metzitzah B'Peh (oral suction)
edit
The traditional method of performing metzitzah b'peh (Hebrew: מְצִיצָה בְּפֶה, abbreviated as MBP[76])—or oral suction[77][78]—has become controversial. The process has the mohel place his mouth directly on the infant's genital wound to suck blood away from the cut. Many circumcision ceremonies no longer use metzitzah b'peh,[79] but Haredi Jews continue to perform it.[74][75][67] The practice poses a risk of spreading herpes to the infant.[80][81][82][83] Proponents maintain that there is no conclusive evidence that links herpes to Metzitza,[84] and that attempts to limit this practice infringe on religious freedom.[85][86][87]

The practice has become a controversy in both secular and Jewish medical ethics. The ritual of metzitzah is found in Mishnah Shabbat 19:2, which lists it as one of the four steps involved in the circumcision rite. Rabbi Moses Sofer, also known as the Chatam Sofer (1762–1839), observed that the Talmud states that the rationale for this part of the ritual was hygienic—i.e., to protect the health of the child. As such, the Chatam Sofer issued a ruling to perform metzitzah with a sponge instead of oral suction in order to safeguard the child from potential risks. He also cited a passage in Nedarim 32a as a warrant for the position that metzitzah b’peh was not an obligatory part of the circumcision ceremony.[88][89] It relates the story that a mohel (who was suspected of transmitting herpes via metzizah to infants) was checked several times and never found to have signs of the disease and that a ban was requested because of the "possibility of future infections".[90] Moshe Schick (1807–1879), a student of Moses Sofer, states in his book of Responsa, She’eilos u’teshuvos Maharam Schick (Orach Chaim 152,) that Moses Sofer gave the ruling in that specific instance only because the mohel refused to step down and had secular government connections that prevented his removal in favor of another mohel, and the Heter may not be applied elsewhere. He also states (Yoreh Deah 244) that the practice is possibly a Sinaitic tradition, i.e., Halacha l'Moshe m'Sinai. Other sources contradict this claim, with copies of Moses Sofer's responsa making no mention of the legal case or of his ruling applying in only one situation. Rather, that responsa makes quite clear that "metzizah" was a health measure and should never be employed where there is a health risk to the infant.[91]

Chaim Hezekiah Medini, after corresponding with the greatest Jewish sages of the generation, concluded the practice to be Halacha l'Moshe m'Sinai and elaborates on what prompted Moses Sofer to give the above ruling.[92] He tells the story that a student of Moses Sofer, Lazar Horowitz, Chief Rabbi of Vienna at the time and author of the responsa Yad Elazer, needed the ruling because of a governmental attempt to ban circumcision completely if it included metztitzah b'peh. He therefore asked Sofer to give him permission to do brit milah without metzitzah b'peh. When he presented the defense in secular court, his testimony was erroneously recorded to mean that Sofer stated it as a general ruling.[93] The Rabbinical Council of America (RCA), which claims to be the largest American organization of Orthodox rabbis, published an article by mohel Yehudi Pesach Shields in its summer 1972 issue of Tradition magazine, calling for the abandonment of Metzitzah b'peh.[94] Since then the RCA has issued an opinion that advocates methods that do not involve contact between the mohel's mouth and the infant's genitals, such as the use of a sterile syringe, thereby eliminating the risk of infection. According to the first Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi of the State of Israel, metzitzah b'peh should not be performed, stating in a 1955 letter that "anyone who insists that metzitza must be done by mouth only, is in my opinion, mistaken and is leading others astray in a matter where there is a possibility of danger."[

damage.[80][96] When three New York City infants contracted herpes after metzizah b'peh by one mohel and one of them died, New York authorities took out a restraining order against the mohel requiring use of a sterile glass tube, or pipette.[67][97] The mohel's attorney argued that the New York Department of Health had not supplied conclusive medical evidence linking his client with the disease.[97][98] In September 2005, the city withdrew the restraining order and turned the matter over to a rabbinical court.[99] Thomas Frieden, the Health Commissioner of New York City, wrote, "There exists no reasonable doubt that 'metzitzah b'peh' can and has caused neonatal herpes infection....The Health Department recommends that infants being circumcised not undergo metzitzah b'peh."[100] In May 2006, the Department of Health for New York State issued a protocol for the performance of metzitzah b'peh.[101] Antonia Novello, Commissioner of Health for New York State, together with a board of rabbis and doctors, worked, she said, to "allow the practice of metzizah b'peh to continue while still meeting the Department of Health's responsibility to protect the public health".[102] Later in New York City in 2012 a 2-week-old baby died of herpes because of metzitzah b'peh.[103]

In three medical papers done in Israel, Canada, and the US, oral suction following circumcision was suggested as a cause in 11 cases of neonatal herpes.[80][104][105] Researchers noted that prior to 1997, neonatal herpes reports in Israel were rare, and that the late instances were correlated with the mothers carrying the virus themselves.[80] Rabbi Doctor Mordechai Halperin implicates the "better hygiene and living conditions that prevail among the younger generation", which lowered to 60% the rate of young Israeli Haredi mothers who carry the virus. He explains that an "absence of antibodies in the mothers' blood means that their newborn sons received no such antibodies through the placenta, and therefore are vulnerable to infection by HSV-1".[106]

Barriers
edit
Because of the risk of infection, some rabbinical authorities have ruled that the traditional practice of direct contact should be replaced by using a sterile tube between the wound and the mohel's mouth, so there is no direct oral contact. The Rabbinical Council of America, the largest group of Modern Orthodox rabbis, endorses this method.[107] The RCA paper states: "Rabbi Schachter even reports that Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik reports that his father, Rav Moshe Soloveitchik, would not permit a mohel to perform metzitza be’peh with direct oral contact, and that his grandfather, Rav Chaim Soloveitchik, instructed mohelim in Brisk not to do metzitza be’peh with direct oral contact. However, although Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik also generally prohibited metzitza be’peh with direct oral contact, he did not ban it by those who insisted upon it." The sefer Mitzvas Hametzitzah[108] by Rabbi Sinai Schiffer of Baden, Germany, states that he is in possession of letters from 36 major Russian (Lithuanian) rabbis that categorically prohibit Metzitzah with a sponge and require it to be done orally. Among them is Rabbi Chaim Halevi Soloveitchik of Brisk.

In September 2012, the New York Department of Health unanimously ruled that the practice of metztizah b'peh should require informed consent from the parent or guardian of the child undergoing the ritual.[109] Prior to the ruling, several hundred rabbis, including Rabbi David Niederman, the executive director of the United Jewish Organization of Williamsburg, signed a declaration stating that they would not inform parents of the potential dangers that came with metzitzah b'peh, even if informed consent became law.[110]

In a motion for preliminary injunction with intent to sue, filed against New York City Department of Health & Mental Hygiene, affidavits by Awi Federgruen,[111][112] Brenda Breuer,[113][114] and Daniel S. Berman[115][116] argued that the study on which the department passed its conclusions is flawed.[117][118][119][120]

The "informed consent" regulation was challenged in court. In January 2013 the U.S. District court ruled that the law did not specifically target religion and therefore must not pass strict scrutiny. The ruling was appealed to the Court of Appeals.[121]

On August 15, 2014, the Second Circuit Court of Appeals reversed the decision by the lower court, and ruled that the regulation does have to be reviewed under strict scrutiny to determine whether it infringes on Orthodox Jews' freedom of religion.[122]

On September 9, 2015, after coming to an agreement with the community the New York City Board of Health voted to repeal the informed consent regulation.[123]

ScrollingLeaves · 03/01/2026 20:23

@Carla786 · Today 19:25
Thank you for explaining so much.
It is shocking to learn that central to what is required from a baby boy, during this ritual of cutting of part of his body, is his pain.

Mischance · 03/01/2026 20:24

I just despair - there are people on here prepared to justify mutilation of babies. It beggars belief.

PennyLaneisinmyheartandmysoul · 03/01/2026 20:25

@Carla786 It's not done for sexual reasons,it was recommended in the Talmud. I think we need to be careful of conclusions about large groups of people ...
ah so you’re on the you can’t say that about this group of people bandwagon?

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 20:29

PennyLaneisinmyheartandmysoul · 03/01/2026 20:25

@Carla786 It's not done for sexual reasons,it was recommended in the Talmud. I think we need to be careful of conclusions about large groups of people ...
ah so you’re on the you can’t say that about this group of people bandwagon?

I'm not Jewish but I am planning to undergo conversion to Masorti Judaism. I will definitely criticise issues in the Jewish community strongly, no group should be above criticism. I don't agree with infant circumcision.

But it is extremely wrong imo to imply that the practice began out of a desire to sexually abuse baby boys,,and that all mohels who historically did that were doing it out of a desire to sexually abuse. Evidence suggests it began as a way to use saliva to try to prevent infection. Obviously this is totally outdated and wrong for many reasons but implying it began as a sexually abusive custom & that's generally been the motive is very wrong.

Carla786 · 03/01/2026 20:32

ScrollingLeaves · 03/01/2026 20:23

@Carla786 · Today 19:25
Thank you for explaining so much.
It is shocking to learn that central to what is required from a baby boy, during this ritual of cutting of part of his body, is his pain.

Yes...😢 As you can see, there's debate about this and this has increased in modern times. But that's traditionally how it was seen...

Apparently in modern ceremonies now forms of anaesthetic are often used. I hope this becomes more common...