Call for circumcision safeguards after baby death

[SerendipityJane]

No excuse in the UK. Ever.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqj2r8x2k4yo

No. According to one explanation I found : Historically, metzitzah (suction) was believed to: draw out “bad blood”, reduce infection, promote healing in newborns, whose circulation was poorly understood.
That belief never applied to adults, whose physiology, healing, and risk profile were known (even in premodern medicine) to be different.

Moreover, today this is mostly only done in very strict Haredi circles where most converts are already Jewish and probably circumcised anyway.

I would argue that the whole idea that you are born into a religion needs to change. You can obviously be born into a religious family and thus go to places of worship, celebrate the festivals etc, but until you are old enough you should not be considered an actual member of the religion. First communion would also be put back until age of majority for example, when the person can decide for themselves without hopefully too much parental pressure. In the case of Judaism, no children would therefore be born into the Jewish religion. Obviously, being Jewish means far more than just the religion, but they would not be considered practising Jews and if they decided to embrace the religious aspect as an adult, they would be treated as a convert.

I agree...but asking most Jewish groups to forsake that is probably not going to work, esp in cases of strict Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Haredi. I'm not saying that's right, but it's reality.

I don't think things like Bar or Bat Mitzvah at 13 are problematic in the same way as circumcision imo.

I don't think we can ask most Jewish groups to change, or groups of any other religion or culture. But we can ban it in this country. We can say that it is a custom that is in opposition to our values and culture, and that we expect people who wish to make their home here to respect our values and culture. And that if they feel they are unable, we wish them the very best and hope they find somewhere better suited to the life they want to live.

Having said all that, I would not encourage this personally, at least at the moment. The environment is already horrific for Jews in Britain, I would certainly not choose this particular time to make them feel even less welcome. And we probably can't introduce the law for everyone other than Jews. So right now my priority would be tackling the hideous antisemitism in this country and ensuring that Jews do know that they are wanted and safe. And then at some point in the future, I would introduce this ban. I am under the impression that a big part of Jewish teaching is that they must respect the country they reside in so I expect that many will understand the new laws and adjust, and those who feel unable will find somewhere that feels more like home. Which is what we expect (or should expect) from any other people whose culture is incompatible with our own.

I agree that such a ban would be wrong now due to rising anti Semitism..

However...I think you're underestimating what this would likely mean. Even if the Israel conflict settles down, wounds are still very raw. And even if that had not happened, communities remember that circumcision has historically been banned for anti Semitic reasons — from Hellenistic times through various European restrictions. That historical memory makes the idea of a modern ban feel like an existential threat to identity. Moreover, it is seen as central to the religion as I've said...this is unlikely to change.

I predict that if we banned it, huge numbers of Jews might move to Israel or another country. If we want a way to protect baby boys that will work...the most realistic is banning circumcision performed by non medical professionals and pressuring the Haredi community to not do the sucking ritual (some already use a pipette instead)

What’s so odd is modern America:
(from Wikipedia)
United States
“As of 2014, an estimated 80.5% of American men aged 14–59 are circumcised.Morris et al. found a present rate of 77% in 2010, when accounting for underreporting. During the 2000s, the prevalence of circumcision in men aged 14–59 differed by race: 91 percent of non-Hispanic white men, 76 percent of black men, and 44 percent of Hispanic men (of any race) were circumcised, according to Mayo Clinic”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision

Obviously not 80% of American males are Jewish or Muslim.

My eldest was born in the US & it was offered to us at the hospital when he was born (we’re not Jewish or Muslim) as it’s the usual practice. We declined & the dr asked us if we were sure as he’d stand out ‘in the locker room’ when he’s older. We declined again & that was it, other than our US friends being horrified that we hadn’t had him circumcised (again, not Jewish nor Muslim). Everyone’s reaction actually had me questioning our decision although we didn’t change our minds but I definitely felt the cultural pressure to circumcise!

We can say that it is a custom that is in opposition to our values and culture, and that we expect people who wish to make their home here to respect our values and culture. And that if they feel they are unable, we wish them the very best and hope they find somewhere better suited to the life they want to live.

But who is ‘we’? Whose values are ‘ours’? Jews have been established in this country since the C11th . Jewish people were key to this country’s commercial and cultural expansion in medieval times, and in stages of history until modern times.

I do agree with you that the last thing we need now is to add to the horrific anti-semitism and unfortunately it is anti semitism (and other prejudices) which makes it hard to talk about practices per se without invoking fear, hatred, division etc.

But in an ideal world it bloody well ought to be important to talk about babies being subjected to such procedures. And babies deserve to be treated as if they live in an ideal world.

I think it helps that circumcision is not solely a Jewish practice, but a ban would equally apply to Muslims and Americans in the UK. So it is the practice that is the issue, not the specific group in which it tends to happen.

I agree with this.

However, it can't be ignored that a ban would not affect Muslims and Americans in the same way. Muslims disagree on whether it's mandated or just strongly recommended, and there is not the same requirement to do it as an infant. Americans it's a cultural thing with no religious basis.

Whereas Unluckily, the Jewish scriptures explicitly say it must be done as an 8-day-old baby. This will be hard to get around, at least for branches who adhere very strictly to the text : Haredi definitely, Modern Orthodox and Masorti and many Reform would have issues too.

'And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.

— Genesis 17:10–14[25]
Leviticus 12:3 says: "And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

It became established there for reasons separate to being Jewish or Muslim.

It's pretty odd , the history. Apparently reasons included various diseases, STDs, preventing masturbation and several other dubious ideas. Some say it stayed around to make money for medical companies. It's increasingly questioned now though.

https://www.google.com/search?q=us+circumcision+history&oq=us+circumcision+his&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgBEAAYFhgeMgYIABBFGDkyCAgBEAAYFhgeMggIAhAAGBYYHjINCAMQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAQQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAUQABiGAxiABBiKBTIHCAYQABjvBTIKCAcQABiiBBiJBdIBCDY1NjFqMGo0qAICsAIB&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

You say yourself that these things can be changed. Circumcision can be done later, if being circumcised at eight days is essential then it shouldn't be possible for an adult male to concert. If a father can ignore the command to do it himself then all those circumcisions done by others are invalid.

As an outsider it seems rules can and do change, interpretations can change if there is a will to do it. Perfectly reasonable for the rabbis to say the advice to suck the penis had or was believed to have health benefits but now with modern circumstances we know this has killed children so the original rule and motivation has gone so it should no longer happen.

The piece you quote also seems to support buying and selling babies, is that still the positio

This is not about religion or culture - these are irrelevant.

It is about child mutilation that is not prohibited in UK law.

People can hold whatever religious views they want, but they cannot be legally allowed to mutilate a baby.

All the posts on this thread about what this or that religion has to say on the subject are completely missing the point.

It is a legal issue - should UK law prohibit child mutilation? That is the question. Clearly it should.

the Jewish scriptures explicitly say it must be done as an 8-day-old baby.

Presumably the same ones that say you shall not kill.

It is a legal issue - should UK law prohibit child mutilation?

It does prohibit it. Only with exceptions.(So it doesn't really).

the Jewish scriptures explicitly say it must be done as an 8-day-old baby. ..... and?

What has this to do with the principle that UK law needs to prohibit child mutilation? Any scripture can say what it likes, but it has nothing whatever to do with what should be allowed in law. The two are entirely separate.

Let them decide at age 16+. Let’s see what the uptake is 🤷‍♀️

No more mutilation of children, meanwhile !

Mischance agree but how is it enforced if forced under ground

Since when has that ever been a valid argument to not banning something ?

The Quran prescribes lashing adulterers (100 lashes) but our courts would not allow that as mitigation were it found to have occurred in this country

Yup ... I get that and enforcement plans need to go hand in hand with a change in the law, difficult though these will be.
The principle that UK law will not allow child mutilation needs to be established.

The procedure isn't likely to have that terrible result of done by a doctor- it's still wrong.

"isn't likely" and 'if' aren't really good enough.

Do you believe that tiny babies should be mutilated in the absence of any medical justification?

Or not?

I've said repeatedly that I disagree with infant circumcision.

Medically, circumcision can be done later; religiously, the timing is part of the commandment. Adult circumcision exists in Jewish law, but it’s a different category (e.g. conversion), not a substitute for infant brit milah.

Jewish law is interpretative, but not infinitely so. Practices like metzitzah b’peh have been restricted precisely because of health evidence, while brit milah itself is regarded by Orthodox Judaism as non-negotiable as it's a core commandment.

Slavery verses aren’t comparable: slavery was regulated in ancient texts but is not a commanded ritual practice.

Some things : alcohol (in the US), selling sex, pornography, in some cases drugs.